Nobody wants NMSU. They are staying in CUSA
UTEP leaving opens the door for Judy’s dream school to come on board, welcome Tarleton State to CUSA
LMAOOOO
MWC getting blown up
- Thread starter sWiley
- Start date
Nobody wants NMSU. They are staying in CUSA
UTEP leaving opens the door for Judy’s dream school to come on board, welcome Tarleton State to CUSA
LMAOOOO
I was sus from day 1. He’s flamed out badly at his last 3 jobs. What on earth would give us any indication things will be better at MT?
MT job is a hard one. Very hard in my opinion. If you want to win at least it is, if your trying to coast on by with “bowl eligibility” being your big goal then it’s not so hard. But to create a championship winning team at MT is going to take a Herculean effort and someone who really knows what they are doing
I just don’t think Mason is that guy. Especially with these coordinators. I’m happy to be wrong though. Recruiting does look good. But will they stay if they strike gold anyway ?
I disagree.
Indiana, for all it's faults in the last 3 years, is a program with Big 10 money, Big 10 resources, a deep(-ish) NIL fund. Tom Allen, the guy Cignetti replaced, led them to a top 10 ranking just 4 years ago, and another top 20 ranking. They've also had a top 25 recruiting class in 2022. There are players on that Indiana roster now that were part of that top 10 team from 2020 thanks to Covid years, and there are players that are part of that top 25 recruiting class on that roster.
Also, the cumulative record of teams he's faced is 8-11.
Big 10 money, infrastructure, and resources + recent track record of success + veteran roster of kids who know what it's like to win + easy schedule vs losing teams = some early wins.
That's not to take away the job Cignetti's doing - he was impressive at JMU and good for him at IU. He looks like the next superstar coach. But what he's facing isn't remotely what Mason is having to tackle (and I'm not saying what Mason has produced on the field in the first 5 is great, just understandable).
Also, what you did with the MT record comparison is a little disingenuous. MTSU's total season record isn't that bad in your stats (it's not competitive for championships, but it's mediocre) - but for the first 4 games of those seasons, we didn't get off to a great start either - our record in the first 5 games of the last 3 seasons was 6-8, a losing record. Those wins in that comparison were built off of late season surges against conference competition - which we haven't seen if we can do this year. Hence, my constant refrain of "let's see where we are at the end of the year to really judge the job we're doing".
If you want to compare it to Mason:
Mason's FBS opponents are 16-4, an .800 winning percentage. I don't have time to look at it, but .800 might be the most difficult first 4 FBS games in college football this year. It is 100% certainly a more difficult early season slate than anything that MT has faced in the last 3 years of your comparison.
The rest of the G5 has 17 new coaches. 11 of them have losing records right now. CUSA has 3 new coaches, they are a combined 2-11. Scotty Walden, everyone's favorite runner up - is 0-4 at UTEP (they lost to an FCS program).
Anyone who took this job was walking into a job that, in his first year:
1. A roster that had little talent to begin with that was decimated by the portal.
2. An almost impossible early season schedule (see 16-4 above).
3. Has no infrastructure built - literally, they are building it now. The new coach actually had to paint the walls of the nutrition station himself.
4. No fan support.
5. Little to no NIL.
6. A tiny budget.
7. No recruiting pipelines or relationships to rely on to restock the roster.
No one has to be happy with where we are today. And if you're still angry at the mismanagement of the past 20 years, sure, totally valid.
But if we're talking about the 2024 season, I think if we're going to be fair and honest with ourselves and our program and coaches - we have to recognize the challenges above.
Doug, this is one you're definitely wrong about. You said no one could have done it. Now, maybe you could restate that to say no one that MT could have actually gotten, but what Cignetti has done there already is nothing short of incredible. There's not much left from prior recruiting classes...
Curt Cignetti is tasked with building Indiana into a respectable college football program as the competition level in the Big Ten increases with expansion in 2024. The new head coach of the Hoosiers seemed to clean house upon his arrival in Bloomington after five successful seasons at James Madison. Indiana witnessed another wave of transfer portal departures during the spring window, pushing the total number of losses to 39. Starting quarterback Brendan Sorsby, top running back Trent Howland as well as starting safeties Phillip Dunman and Louis Moore are among the notable departures from the portal cycle. Indiana has 29 incoming transfers for the 2024 roster. -247
Curt Cignetti is tasked with building Indiana into a respectable college football program as the competition level in the Big Ten increases with expansion in 2024. The new head coach of the Hoosiers seemed to clean house upon his arrival in Bloomington after five successful seasons at James Madison. Indiana witnessed another wave of transfer portal departures during the spring window, pushing the total number of losses to 39. Starting quarterback Brendan Sorsby, top running back Trent Howland as well as starting safeties Phillip Dunman and Louis Moore are among the notable departures from the portal cycle. Indiana has 29 incoming transfers for the 2024 roster. -247
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They’ve got a very soft schedule this season in comparison to those previous 3. I don’t doubt that they will be somewhere around 8-4 this year. Curt is an upgrade but having a manageable schedule does wonders.
That has been one of my biggest complaints about how we’ve scheduled the OOC games. We get to conference play every year with a terrible record and all momentum is lost. Our conference has not helped us either because it always seems like they schedule us the contenders early on.
Louisville’s 2016 season is the best example of that I can think of. EVERYONE remembers that season and how great they were but hardly anyone remembers they went 9-4 and lost to their biggest rival. They started 9-1 and went 0-3 in their last 3 games. Having a manageable schedule helps in a lot of areas. That’s something our university leadership doesn’t seem to understand.
A Big10 program playing that schedule should be 3-2 at minimum. There are 2 bad G5s, 1 FCS, and 2 conference games.
It's the equivalent of MT playing 2 FCS games, Division II team, and two conference games...what's remarkable about Indiana's schedule is the 2 wins in conference.
Perhaps the thing that is being lost is that it’s exactly these types of coaching changes when an average G5 school like FIU or Charlotte can go in and get an upset.
Not only did that not even come close to happening, Indiana has dominated their peers so far. That’s what’s been impressive. Basically a completely new roster and they have dominated everyone they’ve played so far.
Not only did that not even come close to happening, Indiana has dominated their peers so far. That’s what’s been impressive. Basically a completely new roster and they have dominated everyone they’ve played so far.
I look at it this way.
Stock in the first half of his seasons was 44-63 .411. Second half not counting any post season play 64-40 .615.
I'm not saying CDM is the answer, but as a G5 in a weak conference our schedule has always been front loaded. All I'm saying is give him a chance to make it through his first season.
And going by ESPN FPI Resumes, Indiana's played SOS is 108. Ours, 19. In CUSA only WKU has played a tougher schedule at 7, good for the 4th toughest played schedule in G5.
And to top it off our remaining schedule is 134. Dead last in FBS. We literally have the weakest remaining schedule in the country.
Stock in the first half of his seasons was 44-63 .411. Second half not counting any post season play 64-40 .615.
I'm not saying CDM is the answer, but as a G5 in a weak conference our schedule has always been front loaded. All I'm saying is give him a chance to make it through his first season.
And going by ESPN FPI Resumes, Indiana's played SOS is 108. Ours, 19. In CUSA only WKU has played a tougher schedule at 7, good for the 4th toughest played schedule in G5.
And to top it off our remaining schedule is 134. Dead last in FBS. We literally have the weakest remaining schedule in the country.
We've got to get out of CUSA. Somehow someway. Package deal with WKU & Delaware to the MAC to get them to 16 or if TX St leaves a deal to bring us, WKU, and LU with the Flames offering SBC a $ deal of somesort. Ask the AAC to take us and WKU for $1m/yr. I mean do something. Please. We all rolled our eyes at Tarleton yet another conference gets them? To me that says something about Judy and CUSA.
Everyone criticizing CUSA for considering Tarleton State, but apparently they are a desirable school for the MWC as well. They must be doing something right.
We're going to have to agree to disagree again here. Indiana was not nearly the rebuild job that MTSU is (which was the comparison made). Indiana was a fixer upper. MTSU is a smoking hole in the ground.
Again, Indiana in the last 4 years has found itself in the top 10, so it's not like they've never been good. There are players still on the roster from that team. They've had success. They also have all the benefits of the big 10 and a budget of 166 million dollars and an infrastructure that was built including all the facilities, NIL, media, etc.
Cignetti lost some players, but he was able to bring in a 4 star QB, Edge, and WR transfers. He's also had a chunk of a top 25 recruiting class from 2022 on campus, and he was able to bring in 13 guys from JMU to ease the transition.
And, frankly, we can't overlook the soft schedule. Indiana hasn't played a team that I would consider to be better than Indiana. Their opponents have a losing record, only Maryland is 3-2, and i'm not sure Maryland is a better program overall than Indiana anyway (they certainly operate at a fraction of the budget overall)
All credit to Cignetti for starting out how he started out - but this is an apples to oranges comparison. He didn't exactly have to pick up a bucket of paint the day he got to Bloomington.
All of these things about Indiana & its conference affiliation, & NIL power as a program building inducement are true, but Cignetti should also get credit as an absolute home run hire. Looking at what he accomplished at JMU as a fcs program is remarkable. He brought in tremendous talent some of which is now at Indiana, & definitely knows his X & O's.
It was a perfect combination of things that Cignetti & Indiana both brought to the table to give Indiana its start. Guarantee there's a lot of good coaches that could have gone there, & IU probably wouldn't be undefeated at this time. They needed a great, & somewhat unheralded coach to help put them on the map again. And that's what they got.
Unfortunately for IU that means Cignetti will probably be moving onwards & upwards in another year or 2, & the Hoosiers will be back at 4-8 before you know it.
It was a perfect combination of things that Cignetti & Indiana both brought to the table to give Indiana its start. Guarantee there's a lot of good coaches that could have gone there, & IU probably wouldn't be undefeated at this time. They needed a great, & somewhat unheralded coach to help put them on the map again. And that's what they got.
Unfortunately for IU that means Cignetti will probably be moving onwards & upwards in another year or 2, & the Hoosiers will be back at 4-8 before you know it.
For sure, I think Cignetti just might be the next big thing. But if you're using Indiana to somehow compare it to the challenge at MT, it's not comparable.
You said it perfect about how a P4 team can rebuild - Cignetti can show up on day 1 and use Indiana's war chest to buy the MAC player of the year and 13 of his former players from a JMU team that went 11-2. Couple that with an early season schedule against losing teams, and you get what you get.
These men were not handed comparable tasks. There was no coach, not Cignetti, not Nick Saban, that would have been able to walk into MT and accomplish the same thing.
If Cignetti were here, I believe MT would be 4-1 or 3-2, while Mason would have Indiana at 3-2.
UCLA is 1-3 right now. Indiana defeated them easily. If Cignetti were coaching UCLA right now, they would most likely be 4-0.
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Coaching matters.
The good ones taking over a losing program make an immediate impact in year 1. That can be improving the previous year's record or even getting to .500 and bowl game. Year 2 they take off and are competitive across the board but just can't get over the hump of the top couple of programs. Years 3/4 competing for conference championship.
But if you don't get year 1 right you're playing catch up to that timeline.
The good ones taking over a losing program make an immediate impact in year 1. That can be improving the previous year's record or even getting to .500 and bowl game. Year 2 they take off and are competitive across the board but just can't get over the hump of the top couple of programs. Years 3/4 competing for conference championship.
But if you don't get year 1 right you're playing catch up to that timeline.
I don't think Cignetti could have landed the MAC player of the year quarterback or 13 JMU players to MTSU. You don't recruit guys anymore, you buy them, and we don't have any NIL money.
If you guys want to see a guy who is doing really well at a comparable program - Bobby Vincent has UL-Monroe at 3-1.
He is literally the only coach in the G5 level out of 17 who took over a losing program and is off to a winning record. The other G5 coaches with winning records are at Tulane, Fresno, SJ State, and JMU, and they took over programs that were winning before and their coaches left for promotions. Everyone else has a losing record.
Most of the G5 newcomer coaches are struggling. It's just a different world down here, made worse by the recent changes to the sport.
I don't disagree here.
I just think that with the schedule the way it was, we were never set up for a fast start. The things you're looking for, if they come, were always going to come in the 2nd half of the season.
Now that we're here, we need to see some progress.
Derek Mason wasn't even coaching when hired. He was in a broadcast booth. Food for thought.
Also, what about Tarleton. Two years ago, I would have confused them as a pack of ciggs.
Also, what about Tarleton. Two years ago, I would have confused them as a pack of ciggs.
I've been fully against them. But I admit, after seeing their facilities, I'm impressed. They have put major $ in and are part of the A&M system. Plus they are a ranked FCS team right now. Their admin had a vision and they've put their all into it. Gotta respect that.
Possibly.
But UL Monroe's wins are against an FCS and 2 G5 progams. They were annihilated against the one P5 team they did play.
I've been saying what they are building there is remarkable. It looks like a professional facility or something that would be built for a professional team.
I said they will pass us by in 10 years but looking like it might be even sooner than that.
You keep saying this but Mason himself said MTSU was not a rebuild job. This is on record. His words. Not mine. He took it a step further and said this program has good bones.....
????
Tarleton has significant $$ coming in but what's impressed me the most is their community/fan support.
Stephenville is in the middle of nowhere and only has a population of 20k itself but the University has remarkable support despite that.
They were #4 in attendance last year in the FCS averaging almost 19k per game despite their crappy location. Their stands are actually full too it is not a bullshit number.
They will easily approach 25k per/game with the FBS transition and all that $$$ investment. They already have a pretty good basketball program as well. They would whip our ass if we played them.
Maybe they're already ahead of us and I just don't realize it yet. If they join the MWC I'd say that's probably the case.
Acceptance is the final stage of grief.
I'm honestly there. We tried. We had some good times and decent seasons. We put some good players in the NFL and graduated nearly every kid who came through our football program. But the game has changed, the rules have changed, and the landscape has turned programs like ours into glorified JUCO's/farm teams. This can't be acceptable.
I think it really is time to consider just hanging it up, accept what we are (and what we are not), and pour all resources into Men's Basketball. It's not what I want, but I also don't want to just be a glorified JUCO masquerading as something it clearly isn't.
At least with Men's Basketball we would have a better chance of buying some talent since you don't have to pay as many guys, and the tournament format will likely always have a door ajar for mid majors like us. We've made the round of 32 before, twice actually. We can do it again and maybe go further.
I'm honestly there. We tried. We had some good times and decent seasons. We put some good players in the NFL and graduated nearly every kid who came through our football program. But the game has changed, the rules have changed, and the landscape has turned programs like ours into glorified JUCO's/farm teams. This can't be acceptable.
I think it really is time to consider just hanging it up, accept what we are (and what we are not), and pour all resources into Men's Basketball. It's not what I want, but I also don't want to just be a glorified JUCO masquerading as something it clearly isn't.
At least with Men's Basketball we would have a better chance of buying some talent since you don't have to pay as many guys, and the tournament format will likely always have a door ajar for mid majors like us. We've made the round of 32 before, twice actually. We can do it again and maybe go further.
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I personally viewed that statement as a PR thing. He knew some questioned his hire and didn't want to get rid of Stock so he rode the neutral train to not insult anyone at all.
Cignetti also had an 11-1 James Madison team to pull talent from along with B10 resources to get even more portal talent. Then Indiana has an extremely workable schedule. Not the same situation, but Cignetti was arguably the top up-and-coming coach
They were his words, I read them as rah-rah PR.
But this is also the same program you yourself have been railing against for years as mismanaged and rotten - your words, not Mason’s.
Yup.
And it's even worse now.
And Mason could have just kept his mouth shut. Nobody told him he had to explicitly state that the situation was a rebuild or not a rebuild. He volunteered that information and I think he believed it, doubling down on the whole good bones thing and what not.
I want him to prove me wrong. I truly do. The more wrong I am the better. Please, make me look like a moron coach Mason..... But with that being said, he really strikes me as a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of guy. And honestly that sometimes can work if you're more of a salesmen/motivator. There are many successful college head coaches that are not X&O's savants and more the salesmen type...but you better bring in good coordinators/assistants that are sharp...and unfortunately I don't think he's done that either. Both coordinators have left a lot to be desired thus far, especially on the defensive side of things. I much preferred Shafer's schemes and philosophies. Not only was it a more exciting defense to watch, it was just better from a results perspective too. We never get any pressure or hits/sacks on the QB. Shafer would send all 11 guys on a blitz if he had to in order to hit the QB and send a message. It's about sending a message as much as it is getting that TFL.
I foresee/predict some very bad times for MT football. It's going to go about like the whole McDevitt thing went. Pretty damn bad. At least Mason doesn't have major expectations to follow up on like McDevitt had, but it's still going to be bad. And I believe the bad results will be a combination of poor coaching and landscape changes. Schools like ours are just going to be a revolving door where we lose all of our good and even decent talent year after year. I just don't see how we can do anything worthwhile when we are pillaged every off season. What's even the point ?
The days of G5's being close to the P4 is over. We used to say most starters can play with most starters....that the power programs have the depth which helps them pull away usually in the second half. And for the most part, that used to be the case unless we are talking the blue bloods who would just smoke you from the start.
Those days are over. G5's (Well, the poor ones like us) are simply not gonna be even in the same realm as your average P4 team. The days of beating Maryland, Georgia Tech, Missouri, Miami, etc. are over. We will be cannon fodder for the P4/TopG5 and hope for a 6-6 finish by piling up wins against some of the worst teams in the country (our conference of course) in November every year. How exciting.
Maybe Rick Stockstill wasn't so bad afterall.
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You might be right about Mason. To be honest, you can predict every coach will fail and be right more often than not. But, maybe not.
Either way, if you're going to give the man an honest good faith chance, you have to give the man more than 5 games against one of the toughest schedules in the sport.
As for your issues with the G5/P4, who knows. I do think that the upper crust of P4 will eventually split off into NFL lite and the rest of us will end up in some new format. Will that keep our interest? Only time will tell.
They will still be stealing all our good players regardless if they split or not. I'm waiting for them to pass a rule that allows transfers mid-season so when they need an emergency good player they can steal one from a farm team.
How people still find this enjoyable is beyond me
Really with what the SEC/BiG wants to do, why is changing conferences and paying entrance and exit fees worth it at the G5 level. The PAC will still be G5, MWC G5 along with the others. If you want to play GSU's, Troy or any sunbelt team schedule them. This thread is exhausting.
If grabbing 13 guys from a top G5 team was the secret sauce to success, every medocre P4 team would do it.
It is far easier to recruit athletes to UCLA than Indiana, yet Indiana beat them 42-13 in Los Angeles.
UCLA is 1-3 because of coaching.
Indiana is 5-0 because of coaching.
G5s (G6) should all be regional. We can't afford all this cross country nonsense. That's what makes having the PAC and MWC at the same level so stupid. It made sense when the PAC was a Power/Autonomy conference. They aren't now.
Football half makes sense but trucking olympic sports all over the place is ridiculous. Even baseball. When that B1G/SEC split happens, regional rivalries will have to be one of the things to keep G5s afloat.
Egos should be put aside and they just merge. Yes it would mean losing MWC NCAA credits but still, they'd come out ahead in the long run.
It's the same stupidity as Delaware being in a conference with 2000 mile away NMSU or Temple with 1700 mile away UTSA.
It's why UTEP to the MWC is a move that actually makes sense for a change. It's only going to cost them about $3m to leave. The MWC is shooting for $3m/yr (they are at $7m now). We are at $850k.
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