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RaiderDawg78

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How many seasons was it when Massaro pulled the trigger and fired the baseball coach a couple of years ago? Was that 2 or 3 years into his tenure?
He didn’t fire him. He let his contract run out & did not resign. Which is absolutely worse than firing or extending due to the recruiting ramifications. IIRC, it was after year 6.
 

SpaceRaider

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How many seasons was it when Massaro pulled the trigger and fired the baseball coach a couple of years ago? Was that 2 or 3 years into his tenure?
McGuire was named head coach in August of 2012 (after a disaster of a coaching search/announced hire of arky state head coach who immediately back out) coached six seasons (2013-2018) and let go in June of 2018 after missing the conference tournament three straight years...
 

MTLynn

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How many seasons was it when Massaro pulled the trigger and fired the baseball coach a couple of years ago? Was that 2 or 3 years into his tenure?
I have a hard time believing that Massaro can fire any coach without the blessing of McPhee - especially football and basketball.

I try to look at why a coach has success or not.... Randy Wiel was successful at Asheville, and then MT, with the same #1 assistant. Once that coach left, however, so did the winning seasons. MT only won 12 games in 98-99 and 15 in 99-00 before leaving the OVC for the Sun Belt where the Raiders won 5 in 00-01 and 14 in 01-02.

That said, McDevitt has most of his staff from Asheville (including his #1 assistant) in place at MT.

Obviously, it has been a painfully slow transition. The upperclassmen have not responded as needed (if they aren't responding it is the coaches fault, period) but the freshmen are showing flashes and, as they mature, the play will improve. I say that because this staff's track record with freshmen at Asheville is impressive and the MT freshmen have been impressive at times this year.

Like everyone else, I want to see the Raiders win now but I have to look at the growth of the freshmen for a glimpse into the future of MT basketball.
 

RaiderDawg78

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I have a hard time believing that Massaro can fire any coach without the blessing of McPhee - especially football and basketball.

I try to look at why a coach has success or not.... Randy Wiel was successful at Asheville, and then MT, with the same #1 assistant. Once that coach left, however, so did the winning seasons. MT only won 12 games in 98-99 and 15 in 99-00 before leaving the OVC for the Sun Belt where the Raiders won 5 in 00-01 and 14 in 01-02.

That said, McDevitt has most of his staff from Asheville (including his #1 assistant) in place at MT.

Obviously, it has been a painfully slow transition. The upperclassmen have not responded as needed (if they aren't responding it is the coaches fault, period) but the freshmen are showing flashes and, as they mature, the play will improve. I say that because this staff's track record with freshmen at Asheville is impressive and the MT freshmen have been impressive at times this year.

Like everyone else, I want to see the Raiders win now but I have to look at the growth of the freshmen for a glimpse into the future of MT basketball.
It’s an interesting situation & I think you hit something.

Its tough to accept that going from CKD to CNM was as big a change as it has been. However, personality, coaching style and philosophy is completely different b/t the two. The dip is not as surprising to me as the lack of overall growth toward the end of year 2.

Since there is a 0.00001% chance Massaro fires CNM this year even if we don’t win another game, my hope is that the young guys you mention continue to develop and become more consistent since we are essentially playing for next year at this point. The sad part is, I don’t have much confidence that our results will be any better next year. Maybe if we play 5 non-D1 schools next season we can get to .500.
 

dukewayne

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Don't I feel dumb after displaying my utter lack of knowledge of baseball.

The 2 or 3 seasons that stood out in my memory was when the performance majorly dropped off as evidenced by the poor overall record and poor conf record. Apparently that was about 3 years or so. That is the 3 years I confused with my questions.

I'm embarrassed to say that I had no idea M&M just let the contract run out. I had just assumed he was canned after several years of poor records. It is worse than I thought. They technically didn't fire him you all are informing me. I had thought there might have been hope for firing after three years of poor results. Sadly, it seems the suggestion from history is M&M will let the contract expire before firing CNM. That is if past performance is any indication of future behavior.
 

dukewayne

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My assumption has been that any hope of firing would likely come at the end of year three at the earliest. Assuming the same horrible results continue. Sadly, that would appear to be a highly unlikely move with M&M.

My first choice would be that CNM actually succeed here. While not holding my breath at this point, I had hoped that some decent improvement would show up in this final month so as to bolster some confidence for next year. It really hasn't. They've had a few stretches in game of better ball movement, but the overall results are pretty much the same.
 

dukewayne

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In my view, I think CNM & staff have brought in a few players with good potential. Frankly, I'm just not really seeing much of any development or improvement with the players. I think the players are capable. I think some of the big games the players might have are isolated performances based more on their own skill and initiative. If anything, the players seem to be generally regressing here under CNM within the team system.

My overall theory explaining the performance discrepancy between CNM at Ashville vs MT is simply based on the level of competition. Let's face it, the conference Ashville belongs to is not exactly a powerhouse. I would probably place that conf in the bottom five of the roughly 30 D1 conferences. With some high quality recruits just playing on raw skill and athleticism could conceivably be enough to get wins vs half of that conference. Some basic coaching and teamwork could make them further competitive in that conference.
 

MT01

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(6-19), (2-10)

Dead ass last in a crappy conference.

Meanwhile, in Bowling Green....WKU (16-8), (9-3)

I challenge anyone to try and defend this.

Pathetic.

https://conferenceusa.com/standings.aspx?path=mbball
Or 9-4 vs 4-8

You see, wkcc did exactly what you said we won't. Which is acknowledge a bad hire in football and correct that mistake less than two years later to avoid letting the program spiral into an abyss. And had they not been working the kinks out in their first game against a I-AA opponent would have had a 10-win season just two years later. Where would wkcc football be right now had they let Sanford stay? No one will know, but I bet you there isn't a person in Bowling Green who thinks he would have won nine games last year.
 

RaiderDawg78

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Firing a coach is not an option. It would highlight their mistake in the hire in the first place.[/QUOTE
Or 9-4 vs 4-8

You see, wkcc did exactly what you said we won't. Which is acknowledge a bad hire in football and correct that mistake less than two years later to avoid letting the program spiral into an abyss. And had they not been working the kinks out in their first game against a I-AA opponent would have had a 10-win season just two years later. Where would wkcc football be right now had they let Sanford stay? No one will know, but I bet you there isn't a person in Bowling Green who thinks he would have won nine games last year.
The problem is our AD and president. You set standards and expectations for coaches. Besides our low expectations, I wonder if we lack the free capital to fire CNM and staff, then offer a new coaching staff a competitive package?


If our money is earmarked for something else, we might be stuck financially as well as by low expectations.

Because truth is, if we made a move after year 2, we are going to need to pay off this staff plus come up with salary (probably more than current levels) for an new staff.

Actually, any AD worth one’s salt would demand CNM to make a staffing change after this season. Get an assistant coach that specializes in defense. If CNM refuses to make the change, then make the bigger change.


Case in point, look at Kermit prior to Win, Greg and Monte and then look at MT after he put together that coaching staff.
 

MTFNBY5

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Made one of my infrequent trips ( it just isn't fun - boring to quote my better half) to The Murph Sat. night. I finally realized a problem I have with McDevitt. Not sure I can put it in words but he goes "against the book" with his sideline demeanor. He seems to sit patiently at the beginning of each game comely waiting for the team to find itself (and getting down by double digits) before he takes an active role in the game. I want so much to tell him to "get up off of his ass" and start coaching.

Yes, he can be seen giving signals to the players and he takes players out after a big mistake but he plays a very passive role compared to most other coaches until the game gets "interesting".

Now if you are Krzyzewski or Calaperi you can get by sitting most of the game. Huggy can sit on a stool for most of the game. They are successful. But 99% of coaches, especially the up and coming, stand for the entire game.
By going against the book McDevitt is a 180 degree change from Davis. A player under Davis making a big defensive blunder would result in an instant time-out and the player would be (gently?) chastised. McDevitt calmly responds, if at all, by taking the player out at the next opportunity.

An old time coach told me that if you are losing and want to keep your job you need to blame something other than yourself. Blame the players by showing your displeasure with them during games, blame the refs by obviously working them, in high school blame the FB program for taking all the good athletes; find someone or something to blame.

By his sideline demeanor McDevitt the only thing I can think of that he could blame for being worse in his 2nd year is Dishman's injury and we all know that one player wouldn't have made that much of a difference.
 

FranklinRaider315

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And three of our 6 wins are:
Maryville College (Div. III)
Mars Hill (Div. II)
Columbia International (NAIA)

I just don’t understand what the heck is going on in Murfreesboro anymore. There is zero accountability for underperforming. Zero. From the top down.
 

MTFNBY5

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RaiderDawg78: " . . .we might be stuck financially . . ."

I don't think there is any "might" to it. There are too many signs pointing to huge financial problems in the MT athletic department. Chip taking a job as a realtor (I thought he had a full-time position at MT), The inability to show a schedule for the facility improvements, the increase in student fees, loss of sponsorships for game broadcasts, etc. are all telling.

IIRC we lost income with the recent TV package and at the same time we pledged to pay the "cost of attendance" to keep up with the power conferences. Ticket sales are down precipitously for the two main streams of attendance income and this is coming at a time when we desperately need additional dollars. Next to fall will be substantial drops in BRAA memberships when supporters realize their ROI is nil.

We got problems, and I don't think the best fund raisers and ticket sellers can solve them. No obvious solution even with a change in administration from Cope to Murphy. Wish to h--l I knew a solution.
 

JohnDavidBlue

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Beavis and Butthead do nothing.

Sell a vision. Sell concept design. Sell donors name on bricks. Even if you donated 100 bucks. We have the biggest bunch of do nothings. I'm at the point of my life where I actually have money to donate and THEY aren't gonna get a dime other than the pretzels I buy if/when I go to an event which is maybe one per sport.

I was there all of the time in a former life.
 

MT01

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Beavis and Butthead do nothing.

Sell a vision. Sell concept design. Sell donors name on bricks. Even if you donated 100 bucks. We have the biggest bunch of do nothings. I'm at the point of my life where I actually have money to donate and THEY aren't gonna get a dime other than the pretzels I buy if/when I go to an event which is maybe one per sport.

I was there all of the time in a former life.
Yep, and this why the money has tried up like a raisin in Dubai. No accountability. No championship culture.

Everyone in leadership is getting big time extensions for doing the bear minimum. Right now I blame the board. The lack of progress under McPhee is clear and obvious yet the board awards him with an extension of FIVE years and a raise. Instead of extending McPhee, the first major act of the new board (after working on the law school acquisition) should have been removing McPhee and placing a competent leader in charge. When you have a university leadership that looks at the football program after last year and says all is well...nothing needs changing. Everything is just fine then it is painfully obvious that all we're doing if even to give a dollar to this university is paramount to throwing it in the fireplace. And hell how none of them saw it coming when - for the most part - wins in FB over the last couple of years were basically Brent willing us to them. Where we are right now was so predictable.

And don't even get me started again on basketball search. I endured a lot of - let's say less than stellar endorsements - of my views on how this coaching search went and the decision that was made.

I'm so disheartened and discouraged. For a while we did ok in spite of the dearth of leadership, but the rent is now due. McPhee and co. have destroyed MT athletics.
 
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RaiderDawg78

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RaiderDawg78: " . . .we might be stuck financially . . ."

I don't think there is any "might" to it. There are too many signs pointing to huge financial problems in the MT athletic department. Chip taking a job as a realtor (I thought he had a full-time position at MT), The inability to show a schedule for the facility improvements, the increase in student fees, loss of sponsorships for game broadcasts, etc. are all telling.

IIRC we lost income with the recent TV package and at the same time we pledged to pay the "cost of attendance" to keep up with the power conferences. Ticket sales are down precipitously for the two main streams of attendance income and this is coming at a time when we desperately need additional dollars. Next to fall will be substantial drops in BRAA memberships when supporters realize their ROI is nil.

We got problems, and I don't think the best fund raisers and ticket sellers can solve them. No obvious solution even with a change in administration from Cope to Murphy. Wish to h--l I knew a solution.

I agree with everything you say except the last paragraph. I think a change at president / AD and coach can make a huge difference.

If we had an AD come in, remove Stock, & say we appreciate what he did, but we want to elevate our program to a championship level and to do that we are going to demand our teams compete for and win championships, I would rejoin the BRAA that day.

Tenacious effort, excitement and a commitment to success is something we lack in the AD office or Cope. It’s sad that our AD and president lack self-awareness and won’t do what’s best for MT. Sometimes a change is good for everyone.
 

sWiley

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Agreed on new AD, new president, and new coaches.

Sometimes you just need new blood for the sake of new blood. New hires are motivating, they give hope. They get more people to donate and get involved. Nobody likes the boring, status quo stuff. Why do you think there are so many divorces in this country?

It's going to be damn near impossible for Stockstill to breath new life into this program. Imagine this, Stockstill wins CUSA next year....would there really be that much excitement? There wouldn't. People would view it as a fluke and would prepare for a 6-6 or 7-5 outcome the following season. Nobody would be believing that we "arrived"

Now what if we fired Stockstill, hired someone like Walt Bell, and Walt came in and won the CUSA his first year......

Which scenario do you think would provide more excitement? Donations, involvement, etc. would be double and maybe triple under the latter scenario because people would have hope and think that maybe Walt could continue rolling.

The reality in both scenarios is both of them very likely fall back to reality after winning CUSA, but fan perception would be ENTIRELY different.

New coaches, new AD, new presidents....Very meaningful. Remember, perception is reality. And right now the perception of our football and basketball programs is that they're on life support. And that reality is reflected in the lack of support and very few people showing up to games....
 
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dukewayne

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It is a shame what is being done to MT athletics. Frankly, it is sickening when I contemplate the lack of leadership, vision, and accountability. If there were some plan to improve the situation, they sure aren't communicating with the Univ community to let us know.
 

sWiley

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I don't understand how they can expect support at this point. Football hasn't fielded the best team in the conference since Stockstill took over. A few co-championships and a loss in the CUSA championship (that we should have won) isn't going to get anyone excited. Ever. At any school. Rick would have been fired long ago at many other institutions.

What announcements have been made regarding football that are exciting? None. Where are the new facilities? *crickets*

Basketball was great and rolling until Kermit left. Things couldn't have gone much worse with his departure. You can put the blame on whoever you want, but it doesn't change the fact that our program is literally ruined and we'll be lucky to win the same amount of games in 3 years with our new coach that Kermit won in 1 year his last year here. Even Kermit's final year here was pretty depressing after we missed the at-large bid, got blown out @ Louisville in the NIT, and just the way everything went down.

The programs are dead and on life support for a damn good reason. This administration and president have not given our fans and supporters ANYTHING to be excited about recently. There hasn't been excitement surrounding MT athletics since our last trip to the NCAA tournament. Not even the Football CUSA Championship hosted here in Murfreesboro was exciting (as evidenced by fan turn out) because we all knew what the outcome would be. 12 men on the field, never forget.

They've talked about new facilities for so long. They showed us sketches and plans years ago. Then they said they wanted all funding secured before breaking ground. Like, what? Huh? In what world does that make sense? Get started, show people some progress, and then you'll get more donations.........For once in my life I'm actually in a place where I could, if I really wanted to, make a 4 figure donation to the university. But no way in hell am I giving THIS administration my money. Probably would go straight into their pocket because it doesn't look like anything else is being done with it.

Sometimes I wonder are they really that incompetent....or are they just flat out telling lies? Regardless, it is such a sad state of affairs for a school that was once a promising "mid-major" on the rise......
 
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MTLynn

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It is a shame what is being done to MT athletics. Frankly, it is sickening when I contemplate the lack of leadership, vision, and accountability. If there were some plan to improve the situation, they sure aren't communicating with the Univ community to let us know.
Oh, I think the leadership and vision are on pace with where the state wants MT - expanding undergrad offerings, no law school, twice denied, and football dying a slow death... Mc7wood was brought in to do a job and he is doing it.

The interesting part, IMO, is the Chinese connection. I might be way off base but I figure when they found out about McPhee's weakness for other women, they approached him and have supplied him with a variety of women - and he is putty in their communist hands.
 
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FranklinRaider315

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Does the Chairman of the BOT still sit in his floor seats directly across from our bench? I know he used to when I still had my season tickets for basketball. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to sit court-side and watch this for two seasons. But then again, I revert to my initial question.
 

FranklinRaider315

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Oh, I think the leadership and vision are on pace with where the state wants MT - expanding undergrad offerings, no law school, twice denied, and football dying a slow death... Mc7wood was brought in to do a job and he is doing it.

The interesting part, IMO, is the Chinese. I might be way off base but I figure when they found out about McPhee's weakness for other women, they approached him and have supplied him with a variety of women - and he is putty in their communist hands.
Wow!
 

MTTim

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Does the Chairman of the BOT still sit in his floor seats directly across from our bench? I know he used to when I still had my season tickets for basketball. I cannot imagine how hard it must be to sit court-side and watch this for two seasons. But then again, I revert to my initial question.
He does when he shows up. I had a conversation with a booster who sits next to him. They are not happy campers.
 
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crposton

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New President, AD, and coach may make some of you rejoin BRAA for a little bit. Once newness wears off and we are winning 8 games a year in football you will be gone again complaining about the same stuff.
 

MTLynn

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New President, AD, and coach may make some of you rejoin BRAA for a little bit. Once newness wears off and we are winning 8 games a year in football you will be gone again complaining about the same stuff.
There isn't a fan base anywhere who doesn't want their team to win the conference and a top 25 ranking.

Some fan bases expect national championships (bammer).

Is it irrational for MT fans to complain about a coach who hasn't won a conference title in his 14 year tenure, and had only one 10 win season?

A coach who has a losing season in his 14th year deserves to be fired.

Maybe Stockstill has been hampered by McPhee's academic requirements (MT doesn't have the athletes of Appy) but Navy finished with a #20 ranking in the coaches poll and they don't have a team full of great athletes.

Rick Stockstill = Watson Brown = Jeff Fisher
 
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JohnDavidBlue

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That is no where near why there is unrest by a lot of fans. This is way beyond 8 games. This is a lack of vision, goals, success, and overall enthusiasm. I don't remember a time in all of my life of a fan that I just don't "give a flip". And I am seeing that from other people too so I know it is just not me.....

New President, AD, and coach may make some of you rejoin BRAA for a little bit. Once newness wears off and we are winning 8 games a year in football you will be gone again complaining about the same stuff.
 

MT01

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That is no where near why there is unrest by a lot of fans. This is way beyond 8 games. This is a lack of vision, goals, success, and overall enthusiasm. I don't remember a time in all of my life of a fan that I just don't "give a flip". And I am seeing that from other people too so I know it is just not me.....
It's the vast majority of alumni and students. This is what makes me cringe about the current leadership and why sometimes I think they just don't give a damn...

The butts in seats ought to be enough to demonstrate to leadership that there is a problem. But the downward trend in season ticket holders (largely the diehards) should be be another. But then the downward trajectory of giving and support to the BRAA as well and yet all is well in Cope and Murphy. I mean MT athletics is in a clear and obvious depression and yet it's all rainbows and ponies coming out of the university.

But when it has infiltrated the one board we have...when the die hardest of the die hards (that would be those that waste their time here) are jumping ship you would think that would finally be enough to get there attention. But nope. Status quo at little middle. It will work itself out in another decade or two. No biggie. When all these things are right in front of them and still it's carry on business as usual that's when I get to the point that they just don't give a damn. And if they don't why should I?
 
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TrueBlue147

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Oh, I think the leadership and vision are on pace with where the state wants MT - expanding undergrad offerings, no law school, twice denied, and football dying a slow death... Mc7wood was brought in to do a job and he is doing it.

The interesting part, IMO, is the Chinese connection. I might be way off base but I figure when they found out about McPhee's weakness for other women, they approached him and have supplied him with a variety of women - and he is putty in their communist hands.
I've always been baffled by the Chinese connection that McPhee constantly pushes. Instead of pushing for laws schools (Fail) engineering, medical, or other professional schools he seems to be wanting to strengthen our Chinese connection. Why? His focus should be on doing what he can to improve the university for students here in in Tennessee first. MT has a Confucius Institute like Texas A&M. They just shut theirs down because of the growing influence of the Chinese government beyond education. China has a lot of money to through around, so you never know what kind of influence they could have on MT.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...ius-institutes-response-congressmens-concerns
 
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SpaceRaider

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I've always been baffled by the Chinese connection that McPhee constantly pushes. Instead of pushing for laws schools (Fail) engineering, medical, or other professional schools he seems to be wanting to strengthen our Chinese connection. Why? His focus should be on doing what he can to improve the university for students here in in Tennessee first. MT has a Confucius Institute like Texas A&M. They just shut theirs down because of the growing influence of the Chinese government beyond education. China has a lot of money to through around, so you never know what kind of influence they could have on MT.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news...ius-institutes-response-congressmens-concerns

Sure would be nice to have an audit of what the university gets from it, as well as what MT administrators receive outside of the agreements...
 

JohnDavidBlue

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I couldn’t name any other Chinese player other than Jeremy Lin or Yao Ming. That would be one small pipeline.
 

mtfblue

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I couldn’t name any other Chinese player other than Jeremy Lin or Yao Ming. That would be one small pipeline.
why would we know high school or college players? Basketball is big in China and i'm sure you can find a 1 or 2.
 

MT01

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The last time MT was this bad in basketball and had a two year stretch this awful were the 1964-65 and 1965-66 seasons. It was two different coaches that went 13-34 (.288).

CNM in his first two years (counting only DI games) is 12-40 (.230). To just get to .288, he will have to go 5-2 in the final seven games. Stan Simpson's last two years in the 80's were .333. Hell, even in Wiel's two worst years counting only DI wins (including the four win season) he still won 16 games in those two years for a .301 win pct.

No MT basketball team has ever lost 20 games two years in a row (until now). CNM will be the first to accomplish that feat later this week. Congrats McPhee and Massaro on taking us from top 25 to one of the worst - if not the worst - era in MT basketball history.
 
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sWiley

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^^^^ Very sad when you lay it all out like that.

Plenty of blame to go around for it too. Kermit, McPhee, Massaro, and McDevitt.

What's that saying......The blind leading the blind?