BASKETBALL Middle Tennessee(4-12, 0-3) vs WKU(9-6, 2-1), CBSSN, 5PM, Saturday, January 11, 2020

[JohnDavidBlue]

I would like to say that this subject really gets me.

I am NOT a proponent of propping up with student fees. Another discussion for another day.

If funding was different there would definitely be a different direction.

 

[MTFNBY5]

I agree that the use of increased student fees to prop up an athletic department is problematic. This is happening when student costs to attend public colleges and universities are increasing anyway, in large part because of less state support for higher education.
I have no idea what all student fees are used for today but I know it was a for a wide variety of student activities when I was in school. I have to think those activities have changed significantly over time. [Rec. center to run today - free movies not wanted after the proliferation of ways to access - no longer the Tue. night dance (with live local band - my favorite band was The Nomads) on the 3rd (?) floor of the old student union] Coming from a high school where students had to pay to attend games I took advantage of games to attend at no cost - free entertainment - Cheap date - and a huge reason I'm a fan today.
If the majority of student fees are used to support an athletic program no students care about, much less attend games, then we must ask how long before we see serious protests against the fees. Those of us who are sports enthusiasts don't realize how many students, parents, and tax payers could "give a s--t less" about athletics. If the average citizen knew just how much students were having to pay for something of no benefit to them then we might see changes which would cause a huge number of schools to drop to D-3, if not dropping athletics all together.

 

[kingaling42]

Couple of questions for you if you don't mind.....


1. Do you believe McDevitt is "building" a program here.....or was it already built prior to his arrival and needed some renovations?

2. What's your take so far on the "foundation" that McDevitt is creating here at MT? Do you see a team identity forming? Players developing and getting better? Talented recruits on the roster capable of winning championships and NCAA tournament games in the future?

3. When do you expect this team and program to challenge for CUSA championships and push for NCAA tournament success? Please keep in mind he is the highest paid coach in CUSA and probably has a Top 10 salary amongst mid-major programs. Our assistant pay is also very strong as well.

4. What's a reasonable amount of time to give McDevitt to win a CUSA title and/or secure a birth in the NCAA tournament?

Finally- something to actually discuss... I think some of your questions are still deliberately pointing to answers you want to hear but I'm game..

1 & 2 since my answer will correlate to both.
When a head coach leaves any program that has had really good, but limited recent success you are at grave risk of losing what once was.. that's a given even if you promote from within. If you're really looking at the results over the history of the program then you know that MTSU's program has been really good for the last 6 of 7 years at the level you all now expect.

Yes I think CNM is building his idea of a program at MTSU and I don't think anyone can honestly say that he walked into a perfect situation.. things haven't panned out in several areas as expected for him dealing with unexpected player issues last year, injury to arguably the best player on the team this year, and with such poor results this year- also no one was expecting a 3rd-team all conference guy to be so bad this year.. but hey that's what HC's are paid to deal with and comes with the job regardless of tenure.. I think most of us were quite optimistic at how the team came together over the course of last year- they performed better than most would've thought given the offensive deficiencies and the limited time frame to instill entirely new ways of doing things.. you would expect for that to have continued and to be built upon unless you felt that last year's results were somewhat of fools gold- the team only had 4 convincing wins if you'll recall.. [they played hard and honestly last years team was fun for me to watch because I was an energy guy/all-heart type player so I loved watching them play because they really gave it all they had].. but until the roster settles where you're not seeing so many new faces each year the results are going to vary- you have 8-10 new faces on the roster this year depending on how you look at the guys sitting last year (despite that this season is still beyond explanation to this point due to HOW the team is losing).. so I believe he is trying to put together his program and yes he is building something at MTSU. Unfortunately the staff is having to build leadership this year and since that is occurring with underclassmen that can only result in better things in the future as one example.

Which leads to the "foundation".. many others here have noted that CKD and staff relied very heavily on the transfer portal to land key contributors and JUCO's instead of building steady 4-year guys.. if CKD had more multi-year MTSU guys in place then this team would have had 2-4 seniors, 2-4 juniors, AND 2-4 sophomores that had been in the program/system for many years combined on the roster last year right? When CNM took over what exactly was in place? The guys who spent their entire time at MTSU and had some game experience were 3 rising upperclassmen in Gamble, Johnson, and Dixon. 3 rising sophomores in Sims, Shelton-Szmidt, and Massenberg. The other 3 were transfers- Simmons, Hawthorne, Green.. so a third of the returners were transfers and far less of those guys made it to the opening tip as we all know. So what exactly was in place when it mattered for results? Not a whole lot- but again I thought they played hard. I honestly think the staff may have settled for some recruits last year but time will tell.. I believe that Jayce does so much more for this team than what the box score represents- he's a leader but he's young and still raw as a player.. Crump has more upside/potential but he's a gamble and it will ultimately be on him to turn the corner- he is no more of a gamble than Massenberg was but Crump's situation is magnified because this team needs more contributors and he's not that right now. So this staff is building multi-year contributors in their recruiting approach- but of course there have been setbacks in that approach as they wanted to red-shirt 1-2 freshmen last year and this season as well but neither year that ended up working out until Crump got injured last season- which isn't quite the same in terms of player development.. so they've opted to take at least 1 more JUCO than they originally wanted but it is offset some by the prep recruit and by being able to bring Eli in last year.. you can't rush that process despite the results if that's the strategy. I don't know enough details at this point to know if that's the right approach or not..

To get back to your questions though I think it takes a couple years with all YOUR guys in place when you change systems like MTSU did.. from what I have heard one of this years teams issues is team leadership and the fact that the younger guys are more natural leaders than the upperclassmen on the court. Player leadership is something that the coaches don't really have much to do with and when the coaches have to do it- it's because there's a void and it never works out well.

Many of you would've been fine with such a big change in basketball philosophy before CKD last 7 years at MTSU but you've seen the other side and who doesn't want that type of success to continue? CKD did a great job over his last 6 of 7 seasons at MTSU and the program was at unprecedented hieghts.. MTSU certainly has a program with good history and recent success on it's side but several here act as if it was some type of storied program that has been consistent at levels that are simply not true.. I could easily argue that Winthrop under Gregg Marshall had far better results than MTSU.. before anyone gets all bent over that fully evaluate what I'm saying and you might want to check out what Winthrop accomplished and who they beat along the way- but more so their consistency and how long they were that good

CNM and CKD have different outlooks on offense and defense- they have totally different coaching styles in dealing with players in public/closed doors.. those changes alone take a major roster turnover or a couple of seasons- that is no longer an issue and honestly has been sped up in terms of time frames. Once the other 3 players were dismissed last year I was looking at this season as year 1 personally.. I think the results last season were misleading but I still can't account for this season and don't pretend to..

3. Can't reasonably answer this question with such poor results and how the team looks at this point. I will say that since CUSA is down overall it wouldn't take much in terms of landing, finding, developing 2-3 key, consistent players to see some dramatic conference results.. There are some decent, complimentary offensive players on the roster and those guys are young when you consider many guys that end up being studs develop going into their junior years.. the defense is all-together a different story and ultimately improvement on that side of the ball is far more necessary- the team is averaging better than 70 pts/game and will take care of itself as guys start making open shots/better shot selection- some of that seems more mental than anything but late in games the lack of bench depth/tired legs is a factor.. best case scenario is that we see some positive signs soon for this year and looking toward next season with a more stable group of players, assuming Dishman is close to 100% by the time preseason activities come around I would hope for a .500 overall season next year. From there it'll depend on what recruits come in and if the team has 1 stud or 2-3 go-to guys that can counted on consistently... I think you want to be contending for CUSA titles in 2 years at this point- not sure if that is realistic from what we've seen so far but there are so many guys on the roster that are unknowns it's really hard to know.. I'd have a better idea if I were able to attend some practices which I did when CNM was at UNCA- it's hard to know when you can't see those areas. Do any of you all see practices- have insights? As for earning his pay- this is his responsibility and he is just at #10-11 for mid-major contracts see here: mid-major data

4. I would have said 3 years once he was hired last year- since this year is lost in terms of results and I am hopeful that the adversity and this years struggle becomes a rallying point for the players I will say the expectation should be by end of year 4. He'll have at least 5 years to see what we can do though..

A question for you all.. what do think the pillars of a successful program are for MTSU?

This leads back to how I believe many here think of MTSU as a storied program with rich history such that anyone could just come in and pick up where CKD left off.. and while there are certainly some great advantages there are a number of aspects that MTSU has struggled with despite the successes (home attendance, community and campus integration and involvement as easy examples)..

 

[kingaling42]

I'll meet you in person anytime you like. I ain't worried about you at all. I hit close to the truth and you got triggered. You keep dragging this out just to be clear.

We had a program. This dude ended it. Sorry that's too real.

The only thing you hit close to is Kermit's D.. get that frog out your throat already... #1stAmendment.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

Hopefully, Queenaling42 will be here about as long as it takes to make a coaching change and his guy moves on down the road.

 

[MT01]

One major disagreement with above. Kermit didn't rely on transfers to build the program. He built the program around four year guys and to an extent JC players with two or three years to play when needed and found value in the transfer portal where he could add one guy here or there and turn a good team into a great one. He relied on four year guys like Giddy Potts, Reggie Upshaw, Karl Gamble, Ed Simpson, etc., and added a guy like Nick King that supplemented the foundation that was already built.

 

[blueraiderJT]

The only thing you hit close to is Kermit's D.. get that frog out your throat already... #1stAmendment.

Hey, I'm not stumping for him on someone else's board years after he left. That's your f'd up obsession not mine. Keep talking though. That's all you can do apparently.

Everything I said is based on fact. I've even said if I'm wrong, I'd apologize publically. Don't think I'll have to but I will. I'm even willing to put up cash that I won't be. We can hash out the parameters. We can bet this weekend, the USM game, whether we get into the CUSA tourney or total win numer. We can go for next season win number or if he makes a tourney in 2021. I'm open to whatever.

I hope CNM is paying you. If not, that's a sad look. SMH

 

[blueraiderJT]

One major disagreement with above. Kermit didn't rely on transfers to build the program. He built the program around four year guys and to an extent JC players with two or three years to play when needed and found value in the transfer portal where he could add one guy here or there and turn a good team into a great one. He relied on four year guys like Giddy Potts, Reggie Upshaw, Karl Gamble, Ed Simpson, etc., and added a guy like Nick King that supplemented the foundation that was already built.

YUP and he built a system to recruit the JUCO guy or transfer that he needed and could coach up. Dendy didn't do much before he landed here. Neither did Williams or King. It's called coaching and there is a proven track record. He didn't rely on them. There was no guarantee they would pan out. He and the assistants made that happen. I have zero confidence CNM can do that right now. Could be wrong, but so far, I'm not.

 

[Raiderclyde]

I will take up Kingaling42’s question of “A question for you all.. what do think the pillars of a successful program are for MTSU?”

MT has had two MBB coaches in my lifetime that would be considered “hands down” successful: Jimmy Earle and Kermit Davis. Both coaches had different styles of getting their respective players to respond to adversity, become successful leaders on the court, and had different utilization of talent. The game was different in 1975 vs 2015 obviously with the advent of three point lines, shot clocks, and interpretations of what a block versus charge would be. I regard flexibility and resourcefulness as two qualities to stay relevant in the game of basketball (or just about anything else for that matter). Can the coach recruit and sell the University as an opportunity? Is the coach ethical in his relationships? Can the coach inspire excellence (doesn’t matter if it’s the starting 5 in basketball or 11 on the football field)? Is the coach a tactical executor in his acumen?, Does the coach, assistant coaches, and associate athletic directors receive support and supervision that’s both effective and accountable? It’s not merely wins and losses, but it’s expectation of excellence and improving. Charles M. “Bubber” Murphy (namesake of the building) had that leadership in administration and tactical implementation when he coached from the postwar period to his retirement in the early eighties. If I had to describe in just two words it’s “LEADERSHIP” and “ACCOUNTABILITY”. There were two other coaches in my lifetime who had great seasons and a short run of success, namely Stan Simpson and Bruce Stewart, but those individuals were not able to sustain a successful career at MT for various reasons.

Right now, our leadership is on autopilot and is taking a too passive approach in our athletics program. That environment doesn’t yield championships, at best it’s a prescription for mediocre performance. At worst, it yields seasons like this men’s basketball season. Maybe, Coach McDevitt can fix our troubles on the basketball court. I hope so. He is seemingly nice and well mannered; have no problems with his character. But, the win and loss record is judged and at some point it must improve. 11,520 fans will not show up for a 6-23 team next season...winning and progress has to occur. Finishing last place in a weaker C-USA conference doesn’t give confidence. Can he do it: I don’t know, but we are deep into a second season where we aren’t competitive and that is truly troubling. Our NET rating is #319 last I checked.

Finally, we need to look at Executive Leadership and their overall expectations. That is where institutional control is exerted and fan engagement is cultivated into the Murfreesboro and Rutherford County community (wish it could be a regional brand, but that’s another story). Frankly, it’s weak and not focused. Case in point our law school: he didn’t win enough support and credibility to the cause until the “die was carved in stone” and our bid failed 5-8. Our newly touted BOT didn’t have the oversight either. In athletics, C-USA membership was the end goal, but when we got there all the schools with national cachet left to the American and what remained were newbie programs and those who were relatively poor In terms of budgets. We squarely fit that “relatively poor” demographic too compared to the P5 and the $EC. Plus, the leadership of C-USA is really not much better than the OVC in my mind, except that travel covers three time zones and it’s more expensive for our Olympic sports to compete without more revenue. When we finally attained C-USA and unwrapped the proverbial “Christmas package” it was a pretty box and bow with nice tissue paper inside, but nothing much else of value in terms of multiple NCAA bids year after year. Our football rankings are rare in C-USA (see 13-1 Marshall in 2014: #23, while a 5 loss Auburn was ranked higher). Years later, the C-USA move looks more like a mistake in hindsight and yet another mistake by executive leadership. Maybe it gets better, but it’s really discouraging and disappointing from this fan’s perspective here in January, 2020.

 

[RaiderDawg78]

I will take up Kingaling42’s question of “A question for you all.. what do think the pillars of a successful program are for MTSU?

I will add to this.

To me, MT should be competing for a conference championship, resulting in NCAA/NIT bids every 4-5 years. While we may have some down seasons in a 4-5 year cycle a coach should at the very worst be able to average out at .500 or better basketball during the cycle. There is no excuse for winning less than 10 D1 games in a season.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

I will add to this.

To me, MT should be competing for a conference championship, resulting in NCAA/NIT bids every 4-5 years. While we may have some down seasons in a 4-5 year cycle a coach should at the very worst be able to average out at .500 or better basketball during the cycle. There is no excuse for winning less than 10 D1 games in a season.

In Football as well!!!!

 

[kingaling42]

One major disagreement with above. Kermit didn't rely on transfers to build the program. He built the program around four year guys and to an extent JC players with two or three years to play when needed and found value in the transfer portal where he could add one guy here or there and turn a good team into a great one. He relied on four year guys like Giddy Potts, Reggie Upshaw, Karl Gamble, Ed Simpson, etc., and added a guy like Nick King that supplemented the foundation that was already built.

Well lets look at that a little closer then..

Let's take the best team in school history assuming you all think that the 2016-17; 31-5 team is the bar..
That team had 5 contributors that were HS recruits
Potts- Jr (his best season BTW as his numbers went down his SR year)
Upshaw- Sr (his best year- with typical progressive improvement)
Gamble & Johnson- Sophs
Dixon- Freshman

The other 7 were all transfers:
Williams- r-Sr transfer from Arkansas
Foote- r-SR JUCO
Habersham, Simpson, Walters, Strachan- r-Jr transfers; CC/JUCO
Copeland- Soph JUCO transfer; subsequently transferred to NC A&T- he's the last 3 year eligible JUCO guy taken

Can you really stand by your comments that CKD didn't rely on transfers?

 

[JohnDavidBlue]

Kermits success was no doubt related to transfers. Dude caught lightning in a bottle with transfers the last several years beginning around Dendy and ending with King.

 

[MTLynn]

I like getting highly rated 1 year transfers. They are experienced and I feel like they give it everything they've got their last year in college.

 

[kingaling42]

The 2015-16 team..
7 HS recruits
Upshaw, Potts, Copeland, Phillips, Simpson, Gamble, & Ivory

6 transfers
Harris, Buford, Raymond, Habersham, Foote, & Strachan

The 2014-15 team..
6 HS recruits
Rozier, Upshaw, Potts, Phillips, Simpson, & Ivory

7 transfers
Harris, Buford, Raymond, Habersham, Foote, Strachan & Richmond

Some of the HS recruits didn't make it 4 years at MTSU for various reasons; 3 transfers (Copeland, Richmond, Phillips); 1 medical retirement (Ivory); 1 dismissal from the team DJ Jones)- so only 5 of the 10 HS recruits played their entire career at MTSU.

These are the highly successful years leading up to the roster situation last year.. that was the foundation left for the next coach and you don't think that if more 4-5 year guys were in the system it would've been a better foundation? I imagine I'd find similar recruiting patterns if I looked further but it doesn't matter since these are the years that matter since it affected the roster inherited.

 

[blueraiderJT]

Well lets look at that a little closer then..

Let's take the best team in school history assuming you all think that the 2016-17; 31-5 team is the bar..
That team had 5 contributors that were HS recruits
Potts- Jr (his best season BTW as his numbers went down his SR year)
Upshaw- Sr (his best year- with typical progressive improvement)
Gamble & Johnson- Sophs
Dixon- Freshman

The other 7 were all transfers:
Williams- r-Sr transfer from Arkansas
Foote- r-SR JUCO
Habersham, Simpson, Walters, Strachan- r-Jr transfers; CC/JUCO
Copeland- Soph JUCO transfer; subsequently transferred to NC A&T- he's the last 3 year eligible JUCO guy taken

Can you really stand by your comments that CKD didn't rely on transfers?

He had no guarantee that any of those transfers would pay off. None of them put up numbers or made the contibutions that they made here. He had an eye for talent and knew what to do with them. Those same players would tell you that. It was probably an easier sell and they weren't as in demand. I watched a few of MT's practices from 2011-2013 and 2016-2018 and it was on another level. I saw Vandy practices in the same time frame and it wasn't near as intense. I had talked with Giddy, JaCory and Reggie. All 3 would tell you of the level of prep that they did everyday. It was a very different time.

Kermit's job was to win as much as he could, not set it up for the next guy. No one set it up for him.

 

[kingaling42]

He had no guarantee that any of those transfers would pay off. None of them put up numbers or made the contibutions that they made here. He had an eye for talent and knew what to do with them. Those same players would tell you that. It was probably an easier sell and they weren't as in demand. I watched a few of MT's practices from 2011-2013 and 2016-2018 and it was on another level. I saw Vandy practices in the same time frame and it wasn't near as intense. I had talked with Giddy, JaCory and Reggie. All 3 would tell you of the level of prep that they did everyday. It was a very different time.

Kermit's job was to win as much as he could, not set it up for the next guy. No one set it up for him.

I hear what you're saying but you also stated that CKD didn't rely on these guys- you can't possibly believe that..CKD and staff had an eye for talent as does CNM's track record with HS recruits.. that's moot point but which talented kid would you rather have- the 1 or 2 year stud or the 4 year studs like Potts/Upshaw?

CKD may not have counted on them doing as well as they did but he certainly relied upon transfers.. Wiley asked the questions and I answered his questions- your points now are moving away from his original questions which is what I responded to.. he didn't ask about practice or player development.

 

[RandallThomason]

Well lets look at that a little closer then..

Let's take the best team in school history assuming you all think that the 2016-17; 31-5 team is the bar..
That team had 5 contributors that were HS recruits
Potts- Jr (his best season BTW as his numbers went down his SR year)
Upshaw- Sr (his best year- with typical progressive improvement)
Gamble & Johnson- Sophs
Dixon- Freshman

The other 7 were all transfers:
Williams- r-Sr transfer from Arkansas
Foote- r-SR JUCO
Habersham, Simpson, Walters, Strachan- r-Jr transfers; CC/JUCO
Copeland- Soph JUCO transfer; subsequently transferred to NC A&T- he's the last 3 year eligible JUCO guy taken

Can you really stand by your comments that CKD didn't rely on transfers?

I appreciate your contributions to the board, Kingaling. You have great perspective on Nick from what you've observed from him in the past. Some of us on the board have more perspective on MT based on what we've observed here in the past. A couple of notes on the 2016-17 team (which I agree is the best MT team in our history).

Ed Simpson was a high school recruit from Ocean Springs, Mississippi, and Antwain Johnson was a JC transfer with 3 years of eligibility remaining when he arrived at MT, so just a couple of small corrections to your list above. The 1 or 2 year transfer pieces of that team (outside of Williams obviously) were mostly bit players. Foote and Habersham had their moments, but they were depth pieces. Copeland's minutes were drastically cut that year because Dixon took the point guard job, so Quay was not a big factor on that particular team (although he did play some meaningful minutes in the NCAA win over Minnesota). Strachan was a non-scholarship player, so I wouldn't really count him. Brandon Walters began to emerge in the second half of that season and was playing really well by the end of the year.

So, ultimately, that team's core was Upshaw, Williams, Potts, Johnson, and Walters, with meaningful role player contributions from Simpson, Foote, Habersham, and Gamble.

It's worth noting that 2 of our NCAA teams (2013 and 2016) did not include a one-year transfer player, which is something I have often quoted to critics that said we were fully dependent on one year players.

The lessons I took from the run of success that we had here is that for us to achieve success on a national type scale, you have to be willing to think outside the box in roster construction. I've said on this board multiple times in the past that I don't particularly care how the roster is specifically constructed; I want the most optimal mix of talent and stability we can get. Some years that might mean we are heavier on JUCO guys, some years that may mean we take a couple of D1 transfers, and some years maybe that means we are heavier on high school guys.

JC prospects and the transfer market has often been our ticket to getting a higher caliber talent player than what we could get from the high school population. As an example, Nick King was a highly sought after high school recruit; we never had a chance out of high school. He transferred from Memphis, and we again weren't really a contender. We ended up getting him on his second transfer after he had the lung infection situation at Alabama during his final year there. If we have a chance to get one year from a Nick King type player, I will sign up for that 100 times out of 100 over an alternative of taking a prospect that we can sign out of high school.

Bottom line for me, is that the "right way" to do it at MT is that there is no one "right way". We will never have a roster of 13 top 150 high school players. Therefore we have to be active on the other markets, where you may find some guys that are highly motivated JUCO late bloomers who were perhaps under-recruited out of high school for various reasons (our best recent JC products were Marcos and Tweety Knight, Bruce Massey, Raymond Cintron, Darnell Harris, Neiko Hunter, and Perrin Buford), or scouring the D1 transfer options (where we got Dendy, Williams, King, and Jaqawn Raymond).

I think we are still seeing Nick's recruiting philosophy at MT take shape. Obviously he has been active with transfers (Dishman, Jones, Jordan, Davis, Scurry) and has dabbled in JUCO (Millner). I also like that he has been active in looking at prep schools (Jackson, Lawrence). I am hopeful that Nick will see through to fruition what he envisions for the future of MT basketball.

 

[MT01]

Well lets look at that a little closer then..

Let's take the best team in school history assuming you all think that the 2016-17; 31-5 team is the bar..
That team had 5 contributors that were HS recruits
Potts- Jr (his best season BTW as his numbers went down his SR year)
Upshaw- Sr (his best year- with typical progressive improvement)
Gamble & Johnson- Sophs
Dixon- Freshman

The other 7 were all transfers:
Williams- r-Sr transfer from Arkansas
Foote- r-SR JUCO
Habersham, Simpson, Walters, Strachan- r-Jr transfers; CC/JUCO
Copeland- Soph JUCO transfer; subsequently transferred to NC A&T- he's the last 3 year eligible JUCO guy taken

Can you really stand by your comments that CKD didn't rely on transfers?

Yes, you have no f'n clue what you are talking about. You weren't here. First Simpson wasn't a juco. Second, the bedrock of those teams were Simpson, Potts and Upshaw. Without those three we were nothing. They were the leaders both on and off. They were what kept the gravy flowing, made sure the team was following a culture that had been established, and backed it up on the floor. Stop looking at a roster and stats and pretending you know what was going on with this program. If you just look at Simpson's stats you would be like meh nothing to see here. But that dude was an elite defender and locked down just about every opposing team's top scorer.

 

[kingaling42]

Yes, you have no f'n clue what you are talking about. You weren't here. First Simpson wasn't a juco. Second, the bedrock of those teams were Simpson, Potts and Upshaw. Without those three we were nothing. They were the leaders both on and off. They were what kept the gravy flowing, made sure the team was following a culture that had been established, and backed it up on the floor. Stop looking at a roster and stats and pretending you know what was going on with this program. If you just look at Simpson's stats you would be like meh nothing to see here. But that dude was an elite defender and locked down just about every opposing team's top scorer.

In evaluating the roster- it doesn't matter whether I was there or not- the facts don't change the total number of transfers vs HS recruits since 2014 do they? Is the answer going to be magically different if you answer the same question? If so then please tell me from your vastly superior knowledge what the roster composition was in terms of high school recruits versus guys that transferred in? I'll wait....

That's right it's still the same totals that I stated..

Evidently I had Johnson & Simpson flip-flopped when I typed that first post- I had it correctly in my 2nd post about the previous 2 seasons even before it was pointed out by Randall (appreciate the correction RT) but thanks for jumping on after the fact MT01 on something that doesn't matter as it doesn't change my point that the team was predominantly made up of transfers. It doesn't change that only half of the HS recruits since 2014 played all 4 years at MTSU.

That is one of the foundation issues that CNM seems interested in changing for his program- and thus my answer to Wiley's questions. Those players you point out that were the bedrock of those teams also had 12+ years of previously established culture in place to come into as freshman.. you can't replicate or implement culture in only 1.5 years.

 

[MT01]

In evaluating the roster- it doesn't matter whether I was there or not- the facts don't change the total number of transfers vs HS recruits since 2014 do they? Is the answer going to be magically different if you answer the same question? If so then please tell me from your vastly superior knowledge what the roster composition was in terms of high school recruits versus guys that transferred in? I'll wait....

That's right it's still the same totals that I stated..

Evidently I had Johnson & Simpson flip-flopped when I typed that first post- I had it correctly in my 2nd post about the previous 2 seasons even before it was pointed out by Randall (appreciate the correction RT) but thanks for jumping on after the fact MT01 on something that doesn't matter as it doesn't change my point that the team was predominantly made up of transfers. It doesn't change that only half of the HS recruits since 2014 played all 4 years at MTSU.

That is one of the foundation issues that CNM seems interested in changing for his program- and thus my answer to Wiley's questions. Those players you point out that were the bedrock of those teams also had 12+ years of previously established culture in place to come into as freshman.. you can't replicate or implement culture in only 1.5 years.

The numbers of one vs the other is an absolutely irrelevant point. You stated he relied on transfers for his success. That was inaccurate, because there absolutely would not have been the success without the four years players who were the team leaders. He utilized a mix of high school, juco, and tranfers to achieve his success. You asked if I stand by that point. And I absolutely do, because it's technically and literally accurate.

To suggest otherwise is simply inaccurate and ignorance on your part, which is fine. Granted you weren't around the program them. To continue to still state that is arrogance in the face of reality. So, maybe you should just say bye.

 

[kingaling42]

The numbers of one vs the other is an absolutely irrelevant point. You stated he relied on transfers for his success. That was inaccurate, because there absolutely would not have been the success without the four years players who were the team leaders. He utilized a mix of high school, juco, and tranfers to achieve his success. You asked if I stand by that point. And I absolutely do, because it's technically and literally accurate.

To suggest otherwise is simply inaccurate and ignorance on your part, which is fine. Granted you weren't around the program them. To continue to still state that is arrogance in the face of reality. So, maybe you should just say bye.

Your original post had nothing to do with the success of the team though- you're just now hanging your hat on key contributors and overall success.. so re-read your own past below..

One major disagreement with above. Kermit didn't rely on transfers to build the program. He built the program around four year guys and to an extent JC players with two or three years to play when needed and found value in the transfer portal where he could add one guy here or there and turn a good team into a great one. He relied on four year guys like Giddy Potts, Reggie Upshaw, Karl Gamble, Ed Simpson, etc., and added a guy like Nick King that supplemented the foundation that was already built.

The programs are built on players by the coaches- a team isn't just about 3-4 players some of which were underclassmen when they were all on the same squad- at least 50% were transfers those 3 seasons- whether they came from JUCO's or other D1's is of no difference when their coming from other systems for less than 4 years. That's not just one guy here or there is it?

While it obviously worked for CKD and 3 of the 4 most recent Conference POYs (King, Williams,Dendy) came thru transfers with Jones being the only 4 year guy- I'm simply saying that CNM is building a different foundation as it pertains to Wileys questions.. you keep going off on these tangents about success and contributions, etc- you're clearly missing my point. If you are going to continue to harp about the success and key contributions of guys then you should be more mindful in speaking about Nick King as simply supplementing the foundation in place.. he was a superior contributor and since you were there at that time you should know better than to try to relegate his status as such..

 

[MT01]

I’m sorry you aren’t able to understand.

 

[kingaling42]

I’m sorry you aren’t able to understand.

Likewise- but let’s pretend that I concede your point.. how many of the players from last years roster were mentored or had any time playing alongside those foundational players? It’s very little and that’s a weak foundation.

 

[sWiley]

As for earning his pay- this is his responsibility and he is just at #10-11 for mid-major contracts see here: mid-major data
.

I think you were just looking at $575,000 for CNM

You have to add the media $$ in there which puts him at $750,000 guaranteed for a mid-major coach.....No other coach gets $175,000 media $$$ not sure why MTSU does it that way but it needs to be considered his base salary.

Only coach I saw on that list you linked making more is Mark Few @ Gonzaga and I'm not sure I would call them a mid-major anymore considering they only sign 4 and 5 star players and annually say hello to the Sweet 16....

Now that I'm looking at that list McDevitt is more like a Top 5 Mid-Major paid coach and maybe Top 3.... (I didn't add up every single coaches base salary + media but I couldn't find really any higher than him....)

Is McDevitt the #1 paid mid major coach ?? Surely some coaches in the American conference make more. Gregg Marshall has to.

 

[kingaling42]

I think you were just looking at $575,000 for CNM

You have to add the media $$ in there which puts him at $750,000 guaranteed for a mid-major coach.....No other coach gets $175,000 media $$$ not sure why MTSU does it that way but it needs to be considered his base salary.

Only coach I saw on that list you linked making more is Mark Few @ Gonzaga and I'm not sure I would call them a mid-major anymore considering they only sign 4 and 5 star players and annually say hello to the Sweet 16....

Now that I'm looking at that list McDevitt is more like a Top 5 Mid-Major paid coach and maybe Top 3.... (I didn't add up every single coaches base salary + media but I couldn't find really any higher than him....)

Is McDevitt the #1 paid mid major coach ?? Surely some coaches in the American conference make more. Gregg Marshall has to.

Marshall makes $3.5M.. this list doesn’t include some others that you might consider mid-majors..

I did just include the list as a reference- there are lots of other media monies that I know guys make that aren’t on that list.. the list also doesn’t reflect any camp agreements or apparel monies that are paid to some HCs.. I think you could move CNM up on that list but then if you add some others not on that list it’s about the same.. regardless he makes good money and needs to show why.. I don’t refute that and he’d say the same..

 

[sWiley]

A question for you all.. what do think the pillars of a successful program are for MTSU?

This leads back to how I believe many here think of MTSU as a storied program with rich history such that anyone could just come in and pick up where CKD left off.. and while there are certainly some great advantages there are a number of aspects that MTSU has struggled with despite the successes (home attendance, community and campus integration and involvement as easy examples)..

I think you have to look at Kermit's blueprint and really need to have watched our games and how we were so successful to understand how to win at MTSU. You'll remember that many posters on here were wondering if McDevitt was gonna sign a big talented transfer when he first arrived. There's a big reason for this.

Most of our success didn't really start UNTIL Kermit started landing big time transfers to mix with the JUCOs and high school players. The first I can remember is LaRon Dendy, from Iowa State, and it was all uphill from there. Few years later JaCorey Williams was a huge transfer for us that had a MONSTER career here. After JaCorey it was Nick King who, again, carried this team on his back along with Potts and Upshaw. Shawn Jones was also a masterful player for us, but he was a high school recruit. Kermit also developed several all conference high school players too though. Giddy Potts, Reggie Upshaw, Shawn Jones, Ed Simpson, and many more that contributed. These high school players were a rock solid foundation for us. Kermit also signed lots of JUCO transfers but most of them were the 3 to play 2 or even 4 to play 3 type of players. So while they were transfers, they were still young and spent lots of time in the program. Kermit was adept at getting great contributions from every type of player. Truly mind-boggling as I reflect on it more. Without the high school players, we would have never had any success. Without the JUCO players, we would have never had any success. And without the big time transfers, our success would have been much more limited. What was so great about our teams was, you could never tell these kids were from all different backgrounds, areas, and got here in different ways. They played so cohesive and as a team. Year in, year out. This was probably because of the solid foundation of high school players in place.

Kermit was outstanding at developing talent and plugging it into his system. I would literally have to list off 25+ players over the last 8 years that considerably and noticeable improved under CKD and they were a mix of all types of players. Kermit rarely ever signed a single dud. He took average high school and JUCO talent and somehow made them good and sometimes great basketball players in short time. We had so much contribution from nearly every player on the roster unless they were injured or had character problems but even those guys were always talented and played well in the short times they did see the floor (Never forget Ivory!).

To more directly answer your question, I believe Kermit showed the blueprint on how you win at a school like MT. You recruit the best players you can for your system and not worry if it's a high school player, a JUCO, or a D1 transfer. At the end of the day that $hit doesn't matter. A player is a player. You also bring in talented Forwards from P5 schools where things didn't work out. You'll notice every big successul transfer Kermit brought in here was a F and usually a stretch F at that. Nobody could guard them in CUSA because most schools at this level just can't get guys that size with that kind of talent. Nick King, LaRon Dendy, and JaCorey Williams literally did whatever they wanted in the paint for 90% of the games we played. What happens then is you get the opponent collapsing and clogging the paint and you just kick it out all day long for guys like Giddy Potts, Antwain Johnson, Darnell Harris, Reggie Upshaw, Raymond Cintron, etc. Our offenses were unguardable in most games and usually only had low scoring affairs when we simply weren't hitting our shots. But then we had suffocating defense to fall back on, so a lot of those games we won anyway even though our shots weren't falling.

I also believe too much is made of Kermit signing JUCO's and transfers. He signed and developed more high school players than any other type of player. He did sign his fair share of JUCO's and P5 transfers but there was always a solid foundation of high school players in our classes. Always. Look at the 3 freshmen that bolted when CNM got here....What were they? All 3 high school players. And pretty good ones at that.

Kermit had it down to an exact science and nobody in the league and very few other mid majors we played had answers for our game. We were even winning most of our Power 5 games I would say during the last 7 years.

It does considerably worry me that Nick's approach is COMPLETELY different than Kermits..... Nick seems to be trying to do what several other programs in CUSA have been doing.....the same programs we were pistol whipping for nearly a decade before he got here......

So pillars of success are:

1. Never settling for recruits, always signing at least a serviceable player. Dead weight on a roster is big time anti-championship
2. Being able to develop talent and do so quickly, regardless of where it comes from (High school, JUCO, D1 transfer)
3. Taking the best available players for your system regardless of where they come from
4. Having a system and culture in place that you believe in that you know can win and win at some of the highest levels


Things that concern me are this. McDevitt has really never "won big." He won a few championships in the Big South...I think 1 regular season, 1 tournament, and 1 where he won both maybe? I don't know, but he's never won big. He's also never won a post-season tournament game. Even with all those talented players he had. VERY concerning, and really makes me wonder how we couldn't do better considering what we are paying and what I know we could have paid ($1 million). I still think we should have done what it takes to get Steve Forbes here, #1 priority. If he just absolutely refused, then I'm giving the keys to Ronnie Hamilton and would have considered Odom if his financial demands were feasible (I'm sure we could have got there).

What also concerns me is McDevitt having a system in place that he truly believes in and understands how to recruit for. It's pie in the sky to think all your recruits need to be high school players, they will all develop, etc. There's nothing wrong with signing JUCO and D1 transfers. At least you know you're getting a more known entity there, whereas high school kids are complete and total gambles and can totally not work out and be absolute disasters (See Farquhar and Crump.....). With a JUCO or D1 player, you at least know the dude can play. And if you're a good coach with a good system and that kid fits....you can make him even better player or maybe even a star.....

I'll stop rambling. Initially, I thought McDevitt could get it done here. But as I've learned more about him, his system, watching how things are unfolding, seeing the kids he is signing and his approach.....I'm extremely worried. I honestly don't believe he himself even has a good idea of what to do. You mentioned "settling" on recruits in your post and IMO that's putting it kindly. Fussell is a good start, but need a lot more talent on this roster and if/when we get that talent they are gonna need much more structured coaching. We flat out look LOST out there and that's just unacceptable. There is no reason for that. Yes our current group is not that talented and we have a thin bench but they can't even function as a group or unit at times and complete basic functions such as a bounce pass or rebound with 2 hands and secure the ball...

 

[MT01]

Likewise- but let’s pretend that I concede your point.. how many of the players from last years roster were mentored or had any time playing alongside those foundational players? It’s very little and that’s a weak foundation.

Well, that ignores that last year - let’s assume Kermit had stayed and roster didn’t fall apart - he would have had Sims, Shelton-S, Dixon, and Johnson (had those last two not been dismissed plus had Kermit stayed what would have been three true freshman - that would have comprised our best freshman class probably ever - all of whom would have contributed as true freshmen. Plus Hawthorne is another to have thrown in last year. And though a JC transfer it was a good core returning. So it wasn’t that Kermit left it bare it’s just the unfortunate situation where some players ended up not in the program for various reasons The foundation was fine. I actually left some other names out, so roster wise had things not gone south I do believe we would have kept rolling, so I disagree it was a weak foundation. But I do believe CNM was the victim of some unfortunate circumstances but not to the point where he should be at 22% win pct. His recruits have failed to do much so far and this team looks as lost as their coach.

So here’s the thing I don’t care if every player on the roster is a juco as long as it works. The only ones that are hard to live by are one and dones because there is no guarantee you get one next year that works out. And as I said what Kermit did is find good ‘one and dones’ that fit his system to make good teams great. He was very careful and selective on bringing one of these per year. But you basically implied if not said it outright that he relied solely on these one and dones to build the program. It’s simply not the case.

Lastly, I told you very early in when you first came on this board that this style of his wasn’t going to work here. I wish he had a roster full of four stars to see how this would work. It might be a lot of fun watching great athletes burn up the Murphy Center but you can’t recruit those guys here.

You have to recruit and develop, mix in some transfers and jucos and see how it works. When Kermit figured that out and started building his roster this way around some core guys he went the program took off. Your boy needs to check his ego and his pride, look to the past to see what works here, and go back to teaching fundamentals and defense instead of Nick-ball. It’s ok to win a game right now 58 to 55. That’s better than losing 86 to 72. Otherwise, he’s going to leave here as the worst coach in MTs history.

 

[sWiley]

The 2015-16 team..
7 HS recruits
Upshaw, Potts, Copeland, Phillips, Simpson, Gamble, & Ivory

6 transfers
Harris, Buford, Raymond, Habersham, Foote, & Strachan

The 2014-15 team..
6 HS recruits
Rozier, Upshaw, Potts, Phillips, Simpson, & Ivory

7 transfers
Harris, Buford, Raymond, Habersham, Foote, Strachan & Richmond

Some of the HS recruits didn't make it 4 years at MTSU for various reasons; 3 transfers (Copeland, Richmond, Phillips); 1 medical retirement (Ivory); 1 dismissal from the team DJ Jones)- so only 5 of the 10 HS recruits played their entire career at MTSU.

These are the highly successful years leading up to the roster situation last year.. that was the foundation left for the next coach and you don't think that if more 4-5 year guys were in the system it would've been a better foundation? I imagine I'd find similar recruiting patterns if I looked further but it doesn't matter since these are the years that matter since it affected the roster inherited.

What's the big deal about whether a player is high school, JUCO, or a D1 transfer?

Please remember that the 3 signee's in Kermits last class were all high school players....and were allowed to leave. Kermit signed plenty of high school players and we always had a solid foundation of high school talent here at MT. He also signed a lot of JUCO players that were around the program for up to 4 years because they spent minimal time at said JUCO...these are essentially high school players.

CNM is signing just as many transfers here at MT that Kermit did, so I don't understand why we are even comparing? A coach should build his roster with the best available players regardless of if they're in high school, JUCO, or a D1 transfer. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you win with. As Kermit demonstrated, you can reload with talent from anywhere if you have a system and good foundation and know how to plug the pieces in.

 

[kingaling42]

I brought this up only because folks were saying that CKD didn’t rely on transfers-i never said anything about whether that’s good, bad or otherwise in the scheme of things but that it wasnt a good foundation for last years resulting team by the time games began to only have 1 guy in Gamble to serve in that capacity....

I believe that any incoming player is better supported in a program if they have mentors outside of just the coaches.. especially at their position- a guard can’t mentor a post player as well as a post player can.. a team needs player mentors, you need role players, glue guys, tough guys to go with the studs.. I dont care where the players come from personally but it helps to have upperclassmen who can provide that mentorship and guys that are either smart enough to get the system down in a short time or guys that have enough experience..

listen you asked deliberate questions and it’s obvious that you asked for no real reason as to what I think- you just think that he should copy CKD and that’s about it.. time will tell

 

[sWiley]

No I appreciate your answers to them. Glad you gave realistic answers. It's obvious the program has a ways to go, but in CBB rosters can be turned over season to season.

Nick just needs to sign talented players. Doesn't matter where they come from. I also hope he understands the importance of defense (FAU learning the hard way tonight, but we aint missing) in this league. There's going to be many nights in CUSA and many of the games we play where the shots will not fall. You win those games by bringing your lunch pale, rebounding, and suffocating your opponent on defense.

I know we have a thin bench right now which doesn't allow him to press as much as he would like and other things.....but once our roster is at full strength I would love to see more mix ups on the defense end. The 1-3-1 is great....2-3 zone will probably be good if he gets his wish and recruits a bunch of long dudes....etc....

 

[MT01]

I brought this up only because folks were saying that CKD didn’t rely on transfers-i never said anything about whether that’s good, bad or otherwise in the scheme of things but that it wasnt a good foundation for last years resulting team by the time games began to only have 1 guy in Gamble to serve in that capacity....

I believe that any incoming player is better supported in a program if they have mentors outside of just the coaches.. especially at their position- a guard can’t mentor a post player as well as a post player can.. a team needs player mentors, you need role players, glue guys, tough guys to go with the studs.. I dont care where the players come from personally but it helps to have upperclassmen who can provide that mentorship and guys that are either smart enough to get the system down in a short time or guys that have enough experience..

listen you asked deliberate questions and it’s obvious that you asked for no real reason as to what I think- you just think that he should copy CKD and that’s about it.. time will tell

No, that's not what you said. You said there was no foundation and that he built the program on transfers. That was false; therefore, I corrected it. The program was built on a mix of players including numerous four year players who served as the bedrock.

 

[kingaling42]

No, that's not what you said. You said there was no foundation and that he built the program on transfers. That was false; therefore, I corrected it. The program was built on a mix of players including numerous four year players who served as the bedrock.

Did I say that? I'd love for you to find that anywhere in what I posted today.. so show me by quoting any of my posts directly where I said there was "no foundation" & also where I said the program was "built on transfers".. I mentioned that I thought the foundation was weak since CKD relied heavily on transfers- that's not the same as what you're spinning now..

Until then there's no point in debating someone who cannot seem to comprehend what is written vs just assuming what you think I said.. try reading comprehension

 

[MT01]

Which leads to the "foundation"

CKD and staff relied very heavily on the transfer portal to land key contributors and JUCO's instead of building steady 4-year guys

When CNM took over what exactly was in place

So what exactly was in place when it mattered for results? Not a whole lot

 

[kingaling42]

Inigo Montoya..you're super special if you think those chopped up quotes means what you think it means.. nothing in those quotes states that there was"no foundation" and I made various posts that the player mix was roughly 50%/50% HS recruits:transfers..

 

[MT01]

You label the beginning of a section “foundation” and then write a novel on all the ways in which there wasn’t one to include these so-called chopped up quotes which are the exact words where you said what you then said you didn’t say. I provided the quotes where you did and everyone sees it. No one is fooled by your misdirection.

 

[kingaling42]

You label the beginning of a section “foundation” and then write a novel on all the ways in which there wasn’t one to include these so-called chopped up quotes which are the exact words where you said what you then said you didn’t say. I provided the quotes where you did and everyone sees it. No one is fooled by your misdirection.

Inigo Montoya, I'm sorry you have trouble reading and comprehending copious responses.. roster management and recruitment strategy is only one part of a foundation if that's what you're getting so hung up about..

 

[MT01]

Last thing I'm going to say about this, because you're starting to annoy me and I'm done with this.

You rambled on and on about bunch of stuff in multiple posts. I said there is only one place out of all that I somewhat didn't agree with and that's your characterization that Kermit "relied on transfers" to build the program. It was inaccurate when you said it. And it still is now. Yet, that one comment led to these ridiculous responses from you and this back and forth, which I'm done with. I've made my point. I have spoken. End of discussion.

 

[MTFNBY5]

To add to the discussion (and not the pissing match): I clearly remember it being a topic of conversation (either here or at the other place - could it have been as far back as Delfi) early in Davis tenure that he was relying too much on players who would be here less than two years [IIRC we brought in a post transfer from UGA (Thomas ?) who was brought in knowing that he would be eligible for only one semester and, again IIRC, he was not the only player brought in for less than two full years. At the time anything less than a two year JUCO transfer who was eligible immediately was to be frowned upon.
And now: With the success we had with back end one and done players along with the new grad. transfer rule no one seems to care. I do remember Davis stating in several interviews that "at a school like MT" you have to do things differently and he implied that he looked at each new year as an entity on it's own rather than looking down the road. It worked for him but I still would like, personally, to have a program made up almost exclusively of 4 and 5 year players who were brought in from high school.
One thing I do give credit to McDevitt for: From as far back as Tim Blue Davis seemed to always over hype players who were sitting out. I understand that he was trying to build support for the program but its seemed that what I was expecting from those players rarely panned out. For his part McDevitt, in interviews I have heard, is not causing fans to have unrealistic expectations from the players sitting out.

 

[MTLynn]

To add to the discussion (and not the pissing match): I clearly remember it being a topic of conversation (either here or at the other place - could it have been as far back as Delfi) early in Davis tenure that he was relying too much on players who would be here less than two years [IIRC we brought in a post transfer from UGA (Thomas ?) who was brought in knowing that he would be eligible for only one semester and, again IIRC, he was not the only player brought in for less than two full years

2004-05 Men's Basketball Roster

Steve Thomas and Mike Dean transferred from UGA. Thomas didn't do much. Dean was really good.

The big impact year was 2011-12 when Kermit signed JUCO's Massey, Knight and Cintron to go along with Dendy and Walker who had transferred in the year before. I think Walker had foot issues as he was no factor on the court, ever.