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FOOTBALL Hot Takes with Hinners - Who is the greatest Blue Raider QB of all time?

C-Bow

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Garrett is back with this week's Hot Take. He had got into a nice debate the other day with me and the GoMiddle crew as to who is the greatest Blue Raider QB to ever dawn the uniform.

To him, it's Dwight Dasher.

Read the Hot Take to find out why!


Hot Takes with Hinners
 
I'd like to let it be known I was throwing my weight around in defense of Logan Kilgore. ;););) .....:)
 
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I have to go with Kelly Holcomb.

Dasher probably had one of the top two or three single seasons of any MT QB. Marvin Collier had one of the greatest seasons as a freshman, guiding MT to an undefeated regular season in 1985. Teddy Morris in 1965, I would also put in front of Dasher's importance to the 2009 season

Dasher, though, also was a disaster his senior season (2010), wrecking, for me, any sense of greatness. His sophomore season was mostly crap as well.
 
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HAs to be Kelly Holcomb. Great college career. Very good professional career. Who else even compares?
 
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Unless history starts in 1999, Teddy Morris has my vote. 3-time conference champion, left with touchdown pass record and averaged over 250 yards passing per game. That was a big number in the sixties. I
 
All you guys living in the past SMH. The time is now. The future is here. The answer is Brent Stockstill. :)
I think it's without a doubt Dasher or Stock. I'm going Dasher....barely.Probably showing my age (24 in a week :))
 
Dasher had one great season, but was a disaster other than that. I would go with Holcomb for now, but hoping to change my vote to Lil Stock once his career is done. Blanking on his last name, but Jonathan________ had a nice career and played in the NFL for a bit too. Can't believe I'm blanking on his last name! Somebody help me out!
 
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Let Brent Stockstill finish four years with a championship or two and a couple of bowl wins, before we pronounce his career the best ever.

I would have love to have seen Kelly Holcomb with a Tony Franklin style offense,

Exactly, Stock is great, has great numbers... but there are no "Wow!" moments for me. He hasn't won anything. He's got more work to do before being crowned.

Dasher gave you those wow moments and then some in 2009. I was GLUED to the New Orleans Bowl. He made play after play. Single greatest season ever and when the collegiate career is so short, one season of pure awesomeness is enough to cement a legacy.

A very fair argument can be made for Holcomb, no doubt. He's definitely had the most football success after college, even though most of his 12 years of his NFL career was as a back up. His pro stats are not good... less than 6000 yards, 39 TDs, 38 ints... but he did leave a legacy at MT.

Again, for me it comes down to the greatest season ever for MTSU, in my opinion. 2009 was simply the best.
 
Blanking on his last name, but Jonathan________ had a nice career and played in the NFL for a bit too. Can't believe I'm blanking on his last name! Somebody help me out!
Quinn. He has had success as a football coach as well
 
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I was young at the time and I know memory always makes things better, but Marvin Collier for me. Kelly Holcomb would be 2nd.

And I have no idea of how his stats actually compare, but I was a big fan of Phil Ironside back in the day.
 
When talking about total careers Dwight barely cracks the top 5. He had one of if not the best single season in MT history but totality you have to look at. Wes Counts, Kelly Holcomb, Marvin Collier, and Brent Stockstill. Just think about this, if Brent wouldn't have gotten hurt he would have become the school's all time leading passer as a sophomore.
 
I expect Brent to have a better junior year than this past season. And if the defense is improved then MT could be sniffing the top 25
 
No votes for Clint Marks?

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Got to be Dasher.

I mean, the guy had a 10 cent head, but he was a million dollar player on the field, and that 2009 season was the best we've had and it's not even close. We still haven't even come close to 10 wins and out bowl results keep getting worse.

Holcomb had the best pro career, but FBS is not DIAA.
 
Clint was great but was hamstringed by a garbage coaching staff for the majority of his career. I don't think it's any coincidence he had a solid senior year with just 1 year under G.A. Mangus (who really wasn't that great either but was better than the previous coordinators). A lot of talent was wasted there towards the end of McCollum's tenure as evidenced by the success Stock had in year 1.
 
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Wes Counts would get my vote. Led the nation in completion percentage and second in passing efficiency, and on and on.
 
If Andrico would not have made that interception pass in Alabama during 2002, I think that entire season would have turned out differently. Bama couldn't stop us.

I think Dasher was prolific one year and one year only.

Best QB overall is Kelly Holcomb and Wes Counts. The McGavock Flash, Johnathon Quinn, was ok.
 
Brent Stocksill hasn't earned the honor yet. Frankly, I think he has only a slim chance to being THE all time great. He must win an outright C-USA championship, possibly two, and at least one AP #25 ranking before I would concur.

My top five MT QB list through 2016:
  • (5) Clint Marks: SBC Co-Championship 2006, 7,342 passing yards.
  • (4) Wes Counts: 8,007 passing yards and good accuracy, one co-championship in 2001. Also Sun Belt Conference player of year (2001)--this honor edges Wes into #4.
  • (3) Kelly Holcomb: 31 career wins, 1-AA playoffs, OVC outright championship in 1992, NFL longevity (impact on the university--exposure as a bonus), 7,064 passing yards.
  • (2) Marvin Collier: 28 career wins, perfect 1985 regular season 11-0 and OVC outright champion, #1 in 1-AA to end the regular season, 4,234 passing yards, guided us to the 1-AA semifinals in 1984--deepest playoff date we ever had, but lost to Louisiana Tech to end our national championship bid.
  • (1) Teddy Morris 32 career wins, 8 losses, one tie from 1962-65. Undefeated season 1965, Two OVC Championships ('64,'65), Grantland Rice Bowl winner in 1964, Most yards per completion in a career--14.7, total all purpose yards in a career of 4,799, OVC Player of Year and decade (later honor was bestowed by the Nashville Banner). His #14 has been retired--only player to have that honor recognized by the University. The Grantland Rice Bowl championship also meant the NCAA Mid-East Title was awarded to MTSC.
In my mind, I value outright conference championships, co-championships, then W/L records, rankings, then the statistical numbers. To me, it doesn't matter if championships were won in FBS or 1-AA...they are championships! Championships should always be the first and foremost team goal. Statistics are nice, but have muted meaning if the team doesn't win a championship or bowl. Seems like in FBS, it seems too much of a secondary goal in favor of getting bowl eligible and we never seem to be working toward that goal...we're almost always out of serious contention by the end of October!
 
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In commenting on Dwight Dasher's QB legacy, I'm not sure he could be considered for #6 or even #7 on the all time list. He may be eighth great all time, and that consideration would be charitable. His body of work is basically based on a New Orleans Bowl win and 10-3 record for 2009--one great season. He's #6 on the all time wins (18), has great rushing stats, but no SBC championships. I see Phil Ironside at sixth and Logan Kilgore at seventh. Phil has two OVC Championships (1989 and 1990) and a number one ranking during the season, giving him a big nod over Logan. Logan has good all around career numbers without a championship. Phil almost makes it to #5, save for the yardage that Clint has earned. Can make a better defense case for Brent Stocksill being eighth, leaving Dwight at #9.
 
Unless history starts in 1999, Teddy Morris has my vote. 3-time conference champion, left with touchdown pass record and averaged over 250 yards passing per game. That was a big number in the sixties. I

Agree with Glenn's rationale!!

Am very leery about throwing the "Greatest All Time QB, RB, WR, DT, S, CB, K, P, etc." title loosely for the very reason each player played in a different era. In a different era, it is very difficult to compare "apples to apples" regarding statistics such as yardage and touchdowns in passing and running departments. Schemes are different. Coaching philosophy is different. Opponents are different. Also, there are twelve regular season games today whereas some seasons just had ten.

In making such a judgment, I look at winning record and championships first. This is the team's ultimate goal and benchmark. Did this quarterback win in his career? What did he win? How consistent was the winning? Once those are answered, then we can go other superlatives and various statistics to differentiate the quality of play. To those with shorter exposure to our program, there is that natural tendency to be biased towards more recent accomplishments. We have one bowl win in the FBS era, so therefore we proclaim the QB of the bowl as our best ever...No, that's not best ever material! Performance over a whole career is--sophomore, junior, and senior in particular, with time as freshman or 5th year senior considered the mix. Thirty-two wins by Teddy Morris is still most wins by a QB at MT. That counts for a lot along with the championships won in '64 and '65. Being named "OVC Player of the Decade" by the Nashville Banner is certainly a honor which can't be credibly overlooked.

Until MT starts being nationally ranked in football, winning at least one outright conference championship, going 11-2, 11-1, 12-1, 13-1, 12-0, or 13-0 in a season and building on multiple bowl wins in consecutive years can we begin talking about someone else as all time greatest QB at MT. That discussion really should be closed until then. No matter how many "video game yards" and touchdowns are accrued, it means precious little unless championships or bowls are won--unless an NFL scout considers the player for the draft or a combine invitation for that player to continue their career.

If we are looking at the FBS era as our body of work, our accomplishments are quite unspectacular. MT has a few modestly difficult winning seasons and a couple of co-championships, at least 11 years in the rear view mirror. Our conference peers of Marshall, Western Kentucky, Louisiana Tech, Southern Mississippi have each been ranked in AP Top 25 since our move to "1-A" and have won conference championships in C-USA or other conferences they've been in since 1999. Also, La Tech beat a Top 25 team in #25 Navy on December 23, 2016. We on the other hand lost our bowl game by allowing 52 points to a 6-7 Hawaii team, who became 7-7.

Think Brent has a slim opportunity window to be considered THE greatest. But, to do so he has to have an outstanding two years with outright championships and being ranked in the AP and Coaches Poll. Most likely, the yards and other superlatives will be there as support if that is done.
 
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Not arguing a bit as I think you have a great list. However, Collier didn't lead that 1984 team. I can't exactly remember who did (I want to think maybe Mickey Corwin). He was a freshman in 1985 and did a masterful job leading that undefeated team. After that, it was a solid career, but never a repeat of that magical season.

Brent Stocksill hasn't earned the honor yet. Frankly, I think he has only a slim chance to being THE all time great. He must win an outright C-USA championship, possibly two, and at least one AP #25 ranking before I would concur.

My top five MT QB list through 2016:
  • (5) Clint Marks: SBC Co-Championship 2006, 7,342 passing yards.
  • (4) Wes Counts: 8,007 passing yards and good accuracy, one co-championship in 2001. Also Sun Belt Conference player of year (2001)--this honor edges Wes into #4.
  • (3) Kelly Holcomb: 31 career wins, 1-AA playoffs, OVC outright championship in 1992, NFL longevity (impact on the university--exposure as a bonus), 7,064 passing yards.
  • (2) Marvin Collier: 28 career wins, perfect 1985 regular season 11-0 and OVC outright champion, #1 in 1-AA to end the regular season, 4,234 passing yards, guided us to the 1-AA semifinals in 1984--deepest playoff date we ever had, but lost to Louisiana Tech to end our national championship bid.
  • (1) Teddy Morris 32 career wins, 8 losses, one tie from 1962-65. Undefeated season 1965, Two OVC Championships ('64,'65), Grantland Rice Bowl winner in 1964, Most yards per completion in a career--14.7, total all purpose yards in a career of 4,799, OVC Player of Year and decade (later honor was bestowed by the Nashville Banner). His #14 has been retired--only player to have that honor recognized by the University. The Grantland Rice Bowl championship also meant the NCAA Mid-East Title was awarded to MTSC.
In my mind, I value outright conference championships, co-championships, then W/L records, rankings, then the statistical numbers. To me, it doesn't matter if championships were won in FBS or 1-AA...they are championships! Championships should always be the first and foremost team goal. Statistics are nice, but have muted meaning if the team doesn't win a championship or bowl. Seems like in FBS, it seems too much of a secondary goal in favor of getting bowl eligible and we never seem to be working toward that goal...we're almost always out of serious contention by the end of October!
 
Dasher was a one hit wonder IMO. My top 3 would be Holcomb, Morris and Collier. Realize many were not alive but as someone said our history goes back farther than 1999. But we have been blessed with some really good QB's.
 
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IMO, the jury is still out on Brent.

Just like nfl qbs, ultimate greatness is based on how many superbowls did you win?

Greatness has to be based on conference championships, You play your conference opponents to win championships regardless of the era. Morris, Collier, Holcomb, Counts, Marks, can not be dismissed.
 
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IMO, the jury is still out on Brent.

Just like nfl qbs, ultimate greatness is based on how many superbowls did you win?

Greatness has to be based on conference championships, You play your conference opponents to win championships regardless of the era. Morris, Collier, Holcomb, Counts, Marks, can not be dismissed.
I agree Space. Brent could end up our best QB.
Terry Bradshaw"s stats are not great but the one he is most proud of are the 4 SB rings.
 
Great QBs win big, I think BS is the best stat QB, but it hasn't translated to victories yet - not all his fault but that is just the way it is..
 
I like how the topic is the greatest QB of all time. But in the rebuttal argument it states 'for those living in the past it isn't Marvin Collier or Teddy Morris. That was a different era of football, a different time' (or something similar).

If that is your view, then the topic is not the greatest of all time, but the greatest of what the writer considers the 'modern era'.

And when you talk all time, I still say Marvin Collier was the best I've seen.
 
I like how the topic is the greatest QB of all time. But in the rebuttal argument it states 'for those living in the past it isn't Marvin Collier or Teddy Morris. That was a different era of football, a different time' (or something similar).

If that is your view, then the topic is not the greatest of all time, but the greatest of what the writer considers the 'modern era'.

And when you talk all time, I still say Marvin Collier was the best I've seen.
I knew that would rile up somebody :)

Here's why I put Stock over Collier and Morris :

1) Statistically, Stock is better than Dasher, Collier, and Morris (by career yardage and touchdowns thrown). He's near the top in career completion percentage (Collier or Morris aren't even listed in the media guide). By these statistics, Stock is (or will be) the best QB all time by the time his career in blue ends.

2) Stock has enjoyed success at football's highest level (FBS), compared to Collier and Morris success on the FCS level.

3) Stock has almost everything you look for in a quarterback : character, leadership, arm, mobility, mental fortitude

Though, anyone who watches football knows the game has changed since the 80s (Collier) and 60s (Morris). The game has changed since the Blue Raiders made the jump to FBS almost 20 years ago.
The biggest challenge in rankings (like this) that it is incredibly hard to project how a player from another era would project to the modern game.

Using Terry Bradshaw as an example (he's a great QB), but he career numbers are not nearly as impressive by more modern standards. Bradshaw was great in his day, but I'm not sure he'd survive in the NFL today (52% completion percentage, 212:210 td:int ratio) with his career statistics
 
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IMO, the jury is still out on Brent.

Just like nfl qbs, ultimate greatness is based on how many superbowls did you win?

Greatness has to be based on conference championships, You play your conference opponents to win championships regardless of the era. Morris, Collier, Holcomb, Counts, Marks, can not be dismissed.

Is greatness really defined by how many championships you win? Marino never won a championship, yet one would have to be crazy not to consider him among the greatest QBs in NFL history. Though, if one argues who is the greatest among the greats, championships may be helpful but they shouldn't the end all.

Championships are the result of a team effort. Stockstill can only do so much with the swiss cheese defense MT fielded last year. I'm not sure it's smart to say that Dasher is greater than Stockstill SOLELY because he won a championship. Dasher had a defense that could stop someone, Stockstill had to score 40+ for MT to have a CHANCE to win, Dasher only had to score 30.
 
Is greatness really defined by how many championships you win? Marino never won a championship, yet one would have to be crazy not to consider him among the greatest QBs in NFL history. Though, if one argues who is the greatest among the greats, championships may be helpful but they shouldn't the end all.

Championships are the result of a team effort. Stockstill can only do so much with the swiss cheese defense MT fielded last year. I'm not sure it's smart to say that Dasher is greater than Stockstill SOLELY because he won a championship. Dasher had a defense that could stop someone, Stockstill had to score 40+ for MT to have a CHANCE to win, Dasher only had to score 30.

Well Dasher never won a conference championship either, he did win a bowl, but while he had one great season, my opinion of him is about as low as it goes...

It may be unfair, but it is my opinion...
 
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Well Dasher never won a conference championship either, he did win a bowl, but while he had one great season, my opinion of him is about as low as it goes...

It may be unfair, but it is my opinion...


I get it, Dasher for that one season was probably the greatest "MVP" for a single year.
 
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