BASKETBALL Secret Scrimmages

[jakeboldenbrp]

How many championships? Regular season? Tournament?

NIT appearances? NCAA appearances?

No issue with you using facts and objectively proving your opinion as valid. It took KD 10 years to do the above and you're screaming at a HC that nearly did it year 5 and has a roster to do it this year.

Hilarious if you think the players he brought in will actually come off the bench and do anything.

Bookmarked. I'll prove this point when the season gets going.

Tre Green is going to be a good player and taking a flyer on the Hall kid certainly seems worth it. J. Johnson plays so hard so it's hard not to like him but there's a clear ceiling there. Not much else excites me.

Talk about "come off the bench this year and do anything". Bookmarked.

Pretty much all the same starters except at the 5 position.

You have 2 new starters in Lands and Mostafa. If you want to reinsert Weston as a third because he didn't play last year, further disproving your narrative this is the same team as last year.

I completely understand your viewpoint on the matter, genuinely. I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that he shouldn't be the coach here past year 3. But the constant goal post moving to compare him to Kermit Davis is ridiculous. It is CLEAR you have revisionist history on KD. It took him 10 years to get a "transfer POY superstar". AND it wasn't until LaRon Dendy that KD started to recruit JuCo/P4 heavily and started his 7 year tear before he took the Ole Miss job.

You are entitled to your opinion but you lose all credibility when you stand on a hypocritical basis. 10 years to win a conference championship. 10 years to get a SBC POY. 11 years to win 70% of games.

I want to win championships, I want to beat WKU, I want to be in the NCAAT. We haven't done those 3 things to my liking either. But it is so hard to empathize with your viewpoints when you literally just make stuff up and you're just mad enough to confirm your bias.

 

[sWiley]

No issue with you using facts and objectively proving your opinion as valid. It took KD 10 years to do the above and you're screaming at a HC that nearly did it year 5 and has a roster to do it this year.


Bookmarked. I'll prove this point when the season gets going.


Talk about "come off the bench this year and do anything". Bookmarked.


You have 2 new starters in Lands and Mostafa. If you want to reinsert Weston as a third because he didn't play last year, further disproving your narrative this is the same team as last year.

I completely understand your viewpoint on the matter, genuinely. I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that he shouldn't be the coach here past year 3. But the constant goal post moving to compare him to Kermit Davis is ridiculous. It is CLEAR you have revisionist history on KD. It took him 10 years to get a "transfer POY superstar". AND it wasn't until LaRon Dendy that KD started to recruit JuCo/P4 heavily and started his 7 year tear before he took the Ole Miss job.

You are entitled to your opinion but you lose all credibility when you stand on a hypocritical basis. 10 years to win a conference championship. 10 years to get a SBC POY. 11 years to win 70% of games.

I want to win championships, I want to beat WKU, I want to be in the NCAAT. We haven't done those 3 things to my liking either. But it is so hard to empathize with your viewpoints when you literally just make stuff up and you're just mad enough to confirm your bias.

I was calling for Kermit to be fired well before he went on his run. If you were around then you would know that. I'm sure the posts still exist if you're that curious. I yelled about it for YEARS, just as I have for McDevitt. Kermit should have been fired well before he became a great coach for us. 10 years is too long. Same goes for McDevitt. He should have been fired after year 3 and most certainly shouldn't be extended next year unless there is an absolute herculean, record setting type of season. Who the hell keeps failing coaches around for a decade? ESPECIALLY in the current day landscape....

With that being said, now...in 2024..I don't care how long it took Kermit to go on his run. He did it and he proved that it could be done. IIRC he had to deal with some sanctions when he took the job (not 100% sure on this but I think so) but he still should have been fired. By the way, don't compare Kermit's ineffectiveness to Mcdevitt's. McDevitt took our basketball program on it's worse 3 year stretch in the history of the program after he was hired. Kermit's teams were always at least decent, competitive with WKU, and sometimes close to winning the conference, which made it all the more maddening. Kermit had some very unfortunate injuries/player retirements that kept him from those championships (That's the only reason he got more time, his teams were actually close despite those circumstances). Those things eventually evened out and Kermit took care of business. That's simply not the case of what's going on here with Nick...He's had 1 respectable season out of 6 with several just putrid teams. Unacceptable. Kermits "bad" teams would have wiped the floor with any of McDevitt's teams.

Kermit proved what was possible here at MT, regardless of how long it took him. We pay well here now compared to other G5's. Very well, actually. And MT did not always use to be one of the highest paying G5's out there. Kermit was paid very poorly, by comparison, when initially hired on but after his success he turned MT into a well paying job (McDevitt should thank him for setting him up for life.....). With McDevitt, we are not getting even close to what we are paying for. Every year this team and staff is getting schooled by coaching staffs with 1/3rd the pay and a quarter of our budget. It'll happen again this year too just you watch. UNACCEPTABLE for a coach that's been here over half a decade. End of story.

And bookmark all you want. I'll bookmark it too and we can gladly bump this after another failure of a season. The starters and rotation of this team is going to be the majority of players who have already been here. We both know that and you trying to posture otherwise is disingenuous at best. The new transfers brought in are not even close to being enough to get this team over the hump. You seem to forget this team won 1 road game last year and was 12-19 against D1 competition. Who exactly do you think is going to make some huge difference for us? Does this coaching staff have a record of coaching players up and players improving season-by-season at MT? (Rhetorical question)

 

[ewglenn]

I personally think in this lame duck year there shouldn't be a minimum for any extension. The year (and his previous years) should be measured in totality. Did he beat WKU? What was our RPI? Road wins? Attendance? Etc.

Granted I would've moved on already, but setting a minimum for a single year is asking for trouble and gives zero incentive for future.

I'd have minimums in a contract over rolling 3yr periods, such as minimum avg of 20-22 wins and no more than one losing season during the period.
But CM doesn't work that way.

I don’t disagree with you either but for everyone there is a number that would save CNM’s job (unless someone thinks even an NCAAT appearance wouldn’t do it). If you’re looking at the total job you’re just averaging it in with the other years. I am doing essentially the same thing. The only thing he can do to save his job imo is get a championship. Anything short of that should be grounds for being fired (based on all the other years).

 

[MT01]

I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that he shouldn't be the coach here past year 3. But the constant goal post moving to compare him to Kermit Davis is ridiculous. It is CLEAR you have revisionist history on KD. It took him 10 years to get a "transfer POY superstar". AND it wasn't until LaRon Dendy that KD started to recruit JuCo/P4 heavily and started his 7 year tear before he took the Ole Miss job.

You're right. He shouldn't have been here after year 2. If we want to get technical he should have never been hired here.

You accuse someone of revisionist history and false comparison while falsely insinuating McDevitt's tenure is anywhere close to Kermit's first six or seven years. No school in America (except this one apparently) would keep a coach winning 30-something percent of his D1 games after six years. Kermit won over 55% of his games the first seven years and played about half as many non D1 schools as CNM has. CNM had one decent year and after almost 200 games coached here it's pretty clear that was an anomaly.

That post masquerades as a logic response while bordering on delusion and should be called out as such.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

After 6 seasons at MT, CNM is (83-106), (46-60). Only at MT would a coach be allowed to hang around with this kind of performance. I guess we didn’t learn our lesson from letting Stock hang around for 18 years after the two losing seasons in ‘19 and ‘20

 

[jakeboldenbrp]

With that being said, now...in 2024..I don't care how long it took Kermit to go on his run. He did it and he proved that it could be done. IIRC he had to deal with some sanctions when he took the job (not 100% sure on this but I think so) but he still should have been fired. By the way, don't compare Kermit's ineffectiveness to Mcdevitt's. McDevitt took our basketball program on its worse 3 year stretch in the history of the program after he was hired.

Kermit proved what was possible here at MT, regardless of how long it took him.

And bookmark all you want. I'll bookmark it too and we can gladly bump this after another failure of a season. The starters and rotation of this team is going to be the majority of players who have already been here. We both know that and you trying to posture otherwise is disingenuous at best. The new transfers brought in are not even close to being enough to get this team over the hump. You seem to forget this team won 1 road game last year and was 12-19 against D1 competition. Who exactly do you think is going to make some huge difference for us? Does this coaching staff have a record of coaching players up and players improving season-by-season at MT? (Rhetorical question)

I guess 4 (of KD’s) players being dismissed for drugs in his first offseason and a COVID season didn’t happen. KD has his excuses for the late start, and NM certainly has his. I’m not saying you have to excuse both cases. I appreciate your consistency in that.

Where you lose me is you say I wanted KD fired before his run, but since he did go on his run, I’m glad it happened and they didn’t fire him. Why isn’t that applied here? If losing 4 players and COVID isn’t a legitimate excuse for bad seasons then we will forever agree to disagree. You also use the injury excuse for KD which is the same argument for last season that you speak so badly of.

You want him fired, and refuse to see any optimism. And I can see your side on not having any reason to be optimistic given the track record. But the ignorance of transferring 6 players with D1, starting experience as a move in the right direction for this season (I don’t disagree with the need for homegrown development and the future) is my biggest point of contention. I have many episodes talking about the team with multiple media personalities and the coach himself so I’ll save you the time. I’m asking you — why do you believe this team is the exact same as last year? I would make the argument that if this team doesn’t win 23+ this would be his biggest failing season because this team is so talented.

On the other note, the money is a valid point. I also wasn’t pleased with the initial hiring because I thought MT had a lot of buying power coming off KD’s career at MT. I don’t know how they landed there because at a school at this level, we will always take a chance on the next coach. But that was a unique opportunity for MTSU to “buy-up”. Unfortunately in this business, coaches get promoted to MTSU, not demoted. So we can agree the pay isn’t justified based on his results.

 

[jakeboldenbrp]

Kermit won over 55% of his games the first seven years and played about half as many non D1 schools as CNM has.

KD coached against 14 non-D1 schools in his first 7 seasons.

NM will have coached against 14 non-D1 schools in his first 7 seasons.

I’m not discrediting your fact that 55% winning is better than 44% winning. What’s delusional about saying if you want to compare KD’s start to NM’s start they both should have been fired 7 years into their career? Hindsight is always 20/20, it’s much easier to apologize for KD’s start because you know how it finishes.

The only ground I’m wanting to stand on is this team has the opportunity to be special because NM had a great season after a big class like we saw in ‘22. I’m arguing for optimism, not for job security.

 

[MT01]

Because he has proven his style and the way he runs a program cannot work at this level. Well as this league continues to get weaker maybe he will begin to have success. At high mid major this style doesn’t work. I went to great lengths to explain this after he was hired in year one. Everyone said he needs time. Nothing has changed with time. The same deficiencies I highlighted before he ever coached a game here have been proven over the course of 200 games. The evidence of failure is existent. The evidence of success is non-existent. There is literally no comparison between the two coaches first six seasons. Kermit’s teams demonstrated just on the cusp of being an annual conference contender. Was always just that one piece away. Until he figured it out. McDevitt has demonstrated no will to change how he does things in spite of perpetual failure. What does that tell us? It tells us even if he cobbles something together hat gets him more time he will revert and continue to fail. There is literally no comparison to a coach that has never beaten a major program in his coaching career - ever - and Kermits accomplishments. It’s absurd that anyone is incapable of seeing the stark differences in the two coaches first six years and why one was given more time and why the other shouldn’t even be here now.

 

[MT01]

I'm sorry but this subject is depressing to damn near infuriating. We have a President who, himself, has perpetually failed alumni and inserted himself into a process he had no business being in during the hiring, because his ego is bigger than his over inflated paycheck. There is absolutely no school in America that would tolerate the failures this administration allows coaches to get away with. While we've floundered like a fish out of water, our rival continues to be one of the top programs in the two most important sports sitting in first place in football and coming off an NCAA Tournament appearance in basketball. Our rival fires a coach without a single losing season. Meanwhile, in Murfreesboro... (and you can go find your own picture of a dumpster fire).

Why does MT leadership and fan base have such lower expectations than what's demonstrated in Bowling Green? Can anyone answer that?

 

[jakeboldenbrp]

Because he has proven his style and the way he runs a program cannot work at this level. Well as this league continues to get weaker maybe he will begin to have success. At high mid major this style doesn’t work. I went to great lengths to explain this after he was hired in year one. Everyone said he needs time. Nothing has changed with time. The same deficiencies I highlighted before he ever coached a game here have been proven over the course of 200 games. The evidence of failure is existent. The evidence of success is non-existent. There is literally no comparison between the two coaches first six seasons. Kermit’s teams demonstrated just on the cusp of being an annual conference contender. Was always just that one piece away. Until he figured it out. McDevitt has demonstrated no will to change how he does things in spite of perpetual failure. What does that tell us? It tells us even if he cobbles something together hat gets him more time he will revert and continue to fail. There is literally no comparison to a coach that has never beaten a major program in his coaching career - ever - and Kermits accomplishments. It’s absurd that anyone is incapable of seeing the stark differences in the two coaches first six years and why one was given more time and why the other shouldn’t even be here now.

Don’t let football sway your view on basketball. This conference is better than where we’ve been. Not a two-bid league mind you, which I think is your point. This conference is the definition of mid-major. Until we dump FIU and bring in MO St and Delaware could we see us get back to the relevancy you’re attesting to. Just my opinion, you may disagree.

Well said on the style not transferring. Something I’ve spoken to a lot especially with Oliver, and I asked NM that same question in my last interview with him. I would agree with you something has to give.

I’m surprised you say KD being one piece away from putting it together through 9 years (until his first regular season title). I think a lot would agree that mentality is the reason we kept Stock for so long, and why we’re currently holding out on NM. Stock was the king of being just good enough, but not conference champion good enough.

 

[MTFAN61]

Kermit may have not been the greatest offensive minded coach, but he knew how to get the best out of his players when it came to defense. His defensive X's & O's skills kept us in a ton of games even when our talent did not match our competition. Even the majority of his losses were relatively competitive. During his initial 10 year stretch the his win/loss seasonal ratio probably averaged 18-14. That was a frustrating time, but not horrific.
Many times coaches don't fair as well on a second go around, but in this case I would take Kermit in a heartbeat over NM. At least he understands the basics of teaching the fundamentals of basketball, & getting great effort defensively out of his players. He realized defense can win championships at this level anyway.

 

[jakeboldenbrp]

Kermit may have not been the greatest offensive minded coach, but he knew how to get the best out of his players when it came to defense. His defensive X's & O's skills kept us in a ton of games even when our talent did not match our competition. Even the majority of his losses were relatively competitive. During his initial 10 year stretch the his win/loss seasonal ratio probably averaged 18-14. That was a frustrating time, but not horrific.
Many times coaches don't fair as well on a second go around, but in this case I would take Kermit in a heartbeat over NM. At least he understands the basics of teaching the fundamentals of basketball, & getting great effort defensively out of his players. He realized defense can win championships at this level anyway.

That’s a sound take. KD’s floor was never as bad as NM’s, not even remotely close. Nothing under 15 wins.

Those first 3 seasons NM definitely swung and missed on some recruits/transfers and, to your point, those teams lacked basic fundamentals or cohesion because he had some talented guys like CJ Jones and Antonio Green, but one dimensional teams don’t work in CUSA. That’s why Jax State was so bad last year with a player that averaged nearly 18 ppg.

 

[MT01]

Football hasn't swayed me on basketball. I'm not going to go back and find old posts but you're welcome to. It was a bad hire. Simple as that. Something I said from day one. And in spite of what is now a mountain of evidence to back that up, he's allowed a seventh year. It's crazy town in Cope/Murphy.

It's unconscionable. Again, look at our rival. They recognized they made a bad choice in football and fired a coach after only two seasons. Since then 45-28 with four bowl wins. Basketball? Stansbury never has a losing season but they see the trend and it doesn't meet their own expectations. Why do we accept such low bars here? Maybe I should have gone to western.

 

[TrueBlue147]

Kermit may have not been the greatest offensive minded coach, but he knew how to get the best out of his players when it came to defense. His defensive X's & O's skills kept us in a ton of games even when our talent did not match our competition. Even the majority of his losses were relatively competitive. During his initial 10 year stretch the his win/loss seasonal ratio probably averaged 18-14. That was a frustrating time, but not horrific.
Many times coaches don't fair as well on a second go around, but in this case I would take Kermit in a heartbeat over NM. At least he understands the basics of teaching the fundamentals of basketball, & getting great effort defensively out of his players. He realized defense can win championships at this level anyway.

Excellent point about Kermit's teams competitiveness. Very rarely were Kermit's teams run off the floor. Kermit's teams were hardnosed and tough even when they were overmatched by talent. Blow outs were far and few between unlike McDevitt's teams where we were humiliated countless times with 20 plus point blow outs. Also, even in Kermit's "bad" years, they were never as bad as McDevitt's.

I think we have had enough time to see that McDevitt and his system is not going to work here. The only way he does not deserve to be fired, after this season, is if he wins 20 plus games and has a NCAA tournament appearance. If he accomplishes that, it should be only a two year extension. Extending his contract without meeting these metrics is just delaying the inevitable like we did with Stockstill.

 

[TrueBlue147]

I guess 4 (of KD’s) players being dismissed for drugs in his first offseason and a COVID season didn’t happen. KD has his excuses for the late start, and NM certainly has his. I’m not saying you have to excuse both cases. I appreciate your consistency in that.

Where you lose me is you say I wanted KD fired before his run, but since he did go on his run, I’m glad it happened and they didn’t fire him. Why isn’t that applied here? If losing 4 players and COVID isn’t a legitimate excuse for bad seasons then we will forever agree to disagree. You also use the injury excuse for KD which is the same argument for last season that you speak so badly of.

You want him fired, and refuse to see any optimism. And I can see your side on not having any reason to be optimistic given the track record. But the ignorance of transferring 6 players with D1, starting experience as a move in the right direction for this season (I don’t disagree with the need for homegrown development and the future) is my biggest point of contention. I have many episodes talking about the team with multiple media personalities and the coach himself so I’ll save you the time. I’m asking you — why do you believe this team is the exact same as last year? I would make the argument that if this team doesn’t win 23+ this would be his biggest failing season because this team is so talented.

On the other note, the money is a valid point. I also wasn’t pleased with the initial hiring because I thought MT had a lot of buying power coming off KD’s career at MT. I don’t know how they landed there because at a school at this level, we will always take a chance on the next coach. But that was a unique opportunity for MTSU to “buy-up”. Unfortunately in this business, coaches get promoted to MTSU, not demoted. So we can agree the pay isn’t justified based on his results.

Every coach in the country dealt with COVID. That is not a legitimate excuse for the terrible season he had.

 

[OliverLBaltz]

Heard they beat Martin by a lot last weekend.

 

[MTFAN61]

Heard they beat Martin by a lot last weekend.

Was not aware, but good news. Anyone catch score?

 

[sWiley]

I’m asking you — why do you believe this team is the exact same as last year? I would make the argument that if this team doesn’t win 23+ this would be his biggest failing season because this team is so talented.

Because it's mostly the same starters and same staff and I don't see any transfers coming in that will do anything meaningful. They're more than welcome to prove me wrong and I would love nothing more than to win 30 games, in which case I would be totally okay with McDevitt getting another year or two.

I still think we will see the same crap we've seen the last 6 years. A very athletic team that cannot consistently score (especially on the road) and turns the ball over left and right like it's their job. Lots of turnovers and poor offense is all I can think about when McDevitt is involved and its maddening to watch and cheer for.

The athleticism and defense has mostly always been there. If they could ever figure out a way to play well structured basketball, not turn it over, and not go on insane scoring droughts, we could rack up some W's. They just never seem to be able to do it. McDevitt prioritizes athletes over shooting %'s. You gotta find the right balance, which he hasn't been able to do here.