Nailed it 2...Electric Boogaloo

Discussion in 'Around the Water Cooler' started by BlueRaiderFan, Mar 19, 2019.

  1. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    We are all a clump of cells. Life begins at conception and that is a scientific fact. To call it a zygote, embryo, or fetus does not make it non-human. It makes it a human at a certain stage of development just like an infant, toddler, adolescent, etc. Your link looks like a baby to me. See link for references for the fact life begins at conception.

    https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

    Babies can survive outside the womb before 28 weeks for one. Two that is not the consensus among medical doctors and scientists. I know you think you can just say stuff and make it true, but I need some links (not memes) or something that shows 28 weeks or whatever is the "consensus".

    When Roe v. Wade was passed and the right to abortion was created out of thin air (not the Constitution) ultrasounds were not really a thing. Fast forward to today with 4D ultrasounds and people are starting to see the life in the womb. Call it what you want, but it is life and it is undeniable. We see that in the newest Marist poll.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...mericans_favor_limits_on_abortion_139205.html

    From that link, "In some years, including this one, more Americans may identify as pro-choice than pro-life, but more than six in 10 of those who say they are pro-choice (61 percent) join the three-quarters of all Americans in wanting abortion restricted to – again, at most – the first trimester. So do about six in 10 Democrats (59 percent), eight in 10 independents (78 percent) and nine in 10 Republicans (92 percent)."

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/

    FiveThirty Eight pollster rankings give Marist Poll an "A". Put that there in case you wanted to say the poll was biased or whatever.
     
    81 crposton, Jun 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  2. Blueraider_Mike

    Blueraider_Mike Hall of Famer
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    You said at 12 weeks it was a clump of cells (the pics you posted show human form), now your moving the posts. But at least you agree at 28 weeks they are are humans...that's progress.

    Look, the world is full of people doing bad things, but this abortion on demand is just one ugly thing...the only way its sold is this idea that a baby growing inside a woman is just a clump of cells. What a lie...even the original case in court ended up being a farce, but who gives a shit, it got the "right" to abortion approved.

    Could you at least agree that abortions should be preformed rarely?
     
  3. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    Mike, an elephant embryo, as well as others, look very similar at that stage of development. You are correct, I don't support abortion beyond the point that a fetus could survive outside of the womb, however, it's not my body, it's hers and it's none of our business.

    CR, that information is readily accessible if you'd do a simple Google search.
     
  4. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    I have and the truth is what people consider a "baby" varies and there is zero consensus. If you look at doctors and scientists the are pro-choice they will say one thing and the ones that are pro-life they will say another.

    It is not her body. It is a separate body. Just because the two bodies are attached does not mean they are not two people. Anytime innocent lives are being ended it is everyone's business.
     
  5. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    It boils down to this for me, where you think life begins and where a woman that is pregnant thinks life begins can be two different things. Baby or not, that's a matter of opinion, it's inside of her body. It's her decision and not yours and not mine. Maybe we should mandate that all men should get a vasectomy just to be safe. We don't want any innocent lives lost. Don't worry, they are reversible.
     
  6. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    So basically it does not matter if it is a baby or not a baby if it is inside a woman’s body she can kill it? Ending a life because of inconvenience in most cases. You really have your talking points down with the vasectomy thing. They are reversible in most cases. It is society’s business when innocent lives are being ended at such high numbers. At least you admitted it does not matter if it is a baby or not. I respect you admitting you would be okay with the killing of babies in the name of women’s choice.
     
  7. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Oh and I am not so tied up on it being called a baby or not. Call it what you want. It is ending the life of an innocent human being 100% of the time and that is not a matter of opinion.
     
  8. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    Women will get abortions not matter what you want. We should allow them to do it safely and yes, if it's inside of her body, it's none of our business, just like my testicles are none of hers or anyone elses.
     
  9. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Your testicles do mo have their own heart, hands, DNA, etc. Comparing a baby to testicles is a new one and very sad. Dehumanizing a living human being out of convenience sounds eerily familiar. Reminds me of another scar on this country’s history.

    People murder, rape, steal, etc. anyway so why have a law preventing that? If we ban certain guns people will get them anyway so why try? People do illegal drugs anyway, so why not legalize them so they can do them safely? I think abortion is ending a life and is wrong. The fact people will do it anyway does not change my mind. You can be okay with ending the life of humans if you want, but you will be on the wrong side of history.
     
  10. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    Have fun killing women, CR.
     
  11. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Abortions always either kill a male or a female and sometimes both. Every single time. Gotta think half the time it is a female being aborted. Let's address the women dying from "back alley" abortions. For one before Roe v. Wade many states had legal abortions and would if it were overturned. I of course want it illegal all over, but unlikely to happen. Two the number of deaths from illegal abortions is grossly overstated by pro-abortion advocates. here is a link to a fact check of the claim that "thousands of women will die" if we overturn Roe v. Wade.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...every-year-before-roe/?utm_term=.8417f0940492

    Some key points in case you do not read it because you don't really want to know the truth.

    The CDC began collecting data on abortion mortality in 1972, the year before Roe was decided. In 1972, the number of deaths in the United States from legal abortions was 24 and from illegal abortions 39, according to the CDC.

    Legal abortions did not seem to be much safer than illegal ones in 1972.

    Stanley Henshaw, who from 1979 to 2013 researched abortion statistics at the Guttmacher Institute, which favors abortion rights, said he agreed with Tietze’s assessment in 1969.

    “In the 1960s, the officially recorded number of deaths from illegal induced abortion was under 300 per year. While there were undoubtedly other unreported abortion deaths, it is unlikely that the actual number was over 1,000. The figure of 5,000 to 10,000 is reasonable for the 1930s, when there were probably more abortions and less effective treatment of complications,” he said. “In my opinion, if Roe v. Wade were overturned, women would turn to relatively safe medications that can be purchased over the Internet. There would be some deaths but probably not as many as there were in the 1960s.”

    Sure the numbers probably are not rock solid, but if they are the best numbers we have then that is what we have to use. Gotta think today with advancements in medications and other things the deaths would be very low.

    I am not forcing anyone to get an abortion so I am not responsible for anyone's death. Of course you forget how many deaths there are per year because of abortions.

    https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm

    In 2015, 638,169 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2015 was 11.8 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 188 abortions per 1,000 live births.

    188 abortions per 1,000 live births. Just under 20% of all pregnancies are ended by killing a human. Don't tell me I am the one killing women.
     
  12. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    Ok, using your logic then, I'm not forcing anyone to get an abortions either, so I'm not responsible for any fetus that is aborted. I do believe they have a right to choose what to do with anything living inside of their bodies though.
     
  13. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    The Washington Post is a rag and "life begins at conception" is an opinion.
     
  14. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    No that is not an opinion. You may say it is not a “baby” or should not have the same rights as a developed human, but it is a life. Everything from eye color, gender, etc. are determined at that moment. I also love how you criticize the newspaper and say nothing about the stats or people quoted. Stats are from CDC, not the Post. I can see you clearly do not want to bring any of your own stats. Just talking points. The stats were from good sources. You cannot just discredit them because they do not say what you want. Will not work with me. I hope one day you see how misguided your views are. This will be my last post. Have fun with your memes.
     
  15. BlueRaiderFan

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    It is an opinion and therefore your assertion that 20% of abortions end in killing a human is an opinion.
     
  16. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/deliver...2101103107124098106094108084121072024&EXT=pdf

    From that Paper:
    "A sample of 5,502 biologists from 1,058 academic institutions assessed statements representing the biological view ‘a human’s life begins at fertilization’. A consensus affirmed each of the three statements representing that view (75-91%). Overall, 95% of biologists affirmed the view (5212 out of 5502). These findings suggest the descriptive view on when life begins centers on the biological classification of a fetus as a human at fertilization. These findings do not necessitate legal consideration of fetuses because it is not known if fetuses deserve rights or how those rights would be balanced against women’s reproductive rights. However, these findings can lead to such discussions. Biologists’ consensus on the descriptive view can help Americans move past the factual dispute on when life begins and focus on the normative issues in the abortion debate."

    Paper Citation:
    Jacobs, Steven, Biologists' Consensus on 'When Life Begins' (July 25, 2018). Available at SSRN: https://ssrn.com/abstract=3211703 or http://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3211703

    Author:
    Steven Andrew Jacobs
    University of Chicago, Division of Social Sciences, Department of Comparative Human Development

    Another collection of papers I previously posted that say the same thing.

    https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

    I thought a consensus among scientists meant something. I suppose human caused climate change is an opinion too.
     
  17. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    It's stating that an embryo exists, not human life.
     
  18. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    It literally says "A sample of 5,502 biologists from 1,058 academic institutions assessed statements representing the biological view ‘a human’s life begins at fertilization.’ Scientists affirmed statements representing that view. To say what I posted does not say that you are just in denial. Scientific consensus says human life begins when the egg is fertilized. What rights that life should have can be debated, but not that it is a human life. Any reasonable person would see that is what the paper shows. Of course I have come to learn you are not reasonable. Too driven by an ideology and too beholden to a political party to see clearly.
     
  19. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    Many of those quotes do not confirm that the embryo is a human. The third one down for example:


    "Embryo: the developing organism from the time of fertilization until significant differentiation has occurred, when the organism becomes known as a fetus."
    [Cloning Human Beings. Report and Recommendations of the National Bioethics Advisory Commission. Rockville, MD: GPO, 1997, Appendix-2.]


    The writer is asserting that is what they are saying, but in many of the quotes they do not say that it's a human. It's a straw man argument.
     
  20. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    That is from the Princeton link. The paper where 5,502 biologists were asked and 5,212 affirmed the statement "human life begins at conception" is what I was talking about there being consensus. The paper and the Princeton link are two separate things not related to each other at all.

    https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/deliver...2101103107124098106094108084121072024&EXT=pdf

    That link shows the consensus among the 5,502 biologists from over 1,000 institutions that life begins at fertilization which is conception. Sorry you lose the argument of when life begins. Like I said you can take the position and say that an embryo, fetus, whatever should not have the same rights. You cannot say the paper I shared a link to says anything other than there is a scientific consensus life begins at fertilization.
     
  21. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    "A sample of 5,502 biologists from 1,058 academic institutions assessed statements representing the biological view ‘a human’s life begins at fertilization’. This view was used because previous polls and surveys suggest many Americans and medical experts hold this view."

    In other words, there are previous surveys, that's plural as in more than one, at least, that disagree with his study. Sorry, but one that favors your side, out of many, proves nothing.
     
  22. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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  23. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Not in other words and if they are out there find them. Show them to me. 5,502 biologist is more than enough of a sample. And the picture you put up of Sarah Sanders is despicable. You would not like that about any Democrat. You are a disgrace.
     
  24. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Assuming there are papers or other studies that show more scientist than that disagree you are treading water. You have no examples or proof and you think it is good enough just to say it because that is what you need to believe something. If it is said on MSNBC or CNN it is true to you. I have showed you stats that support my argument. What have you showed me? Nothing. I Want to see them. I have looked and cannot find. My mind is open to convincing.
     
  25. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    The article that you referenced states the there is. If the part that you used to support your argument is true, then the part that I referenced is true.
     
  26. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    Also, I've seen much worse from conservatives. Calling a person a disgrace is a personal attack and will be reported.
     
  27. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    By the way, I did 11 years in the Army and I'm a combat vet with the United States Infantry. What have you done for this country? Calling someone a disgrace is pretty strong words. You better hope we don't ever met in person. I don't mind a misdemeanor charge and spending $100 on bail.
     
  28. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Served in the Navy. It is not a personal attack. Report away. Calling someone a ninny is a personal attack if that is lol. So because conservatives do something bad you should too? Putting a picture up like that of a woman is a disgraceful act. Sorry. Also thank you for your service.
     
  29. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    oh and nice threat of violence. Should I report?
     
  30. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    Calling someone a disgrace vs calling someone foolish... Are you kidding? Regardless, I've seen far worse about Michelle Obama.
     
  31. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Not from me you have not. Calling someone a disgrace vs. threatening physical violence. Are you kidding me? Words should never be met with violence no matter how awful the words are.

    I should have said it was disgraceful to post that because it was and not necessarily called you disgraceful. Disgraceful means shockingly unacceptable which that is. Something the same or worse about Michelle Obama is also disgraceful. Someone else doing it does not mean it is okay for you to. Of course you know that. I wish this had not gotten personal and stayed a good debate on policy, but you made sure neither happened by calling me a ninny and presenting only talking points and no data.
     
  32. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    The proof is in your post. Your guy said it, so it must be true, or you can't use him as a valid source. You can't have it both ways.
     
  33. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Who is my guy? Nothing I have posted disputes the fact that the research paper found 90%+ of 5,500+ biologists surveyed said human life begins at fertilization. If there is show me. Why do you refuse to link to anything to strengthen your argument? Also if to be a valid source you had to never be wrong there would be no valid sources.
     
  34. BlueRaiderFan

    BlueRaiderFan Hall of Famer
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    I quoted him earlier in the thread.
     
  35. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    The quote from the princeton link? That does not disprove what the paper found.
     
  36. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Also it is a human embryo. It is from a report discussing cloning human beings. It has unique human DNA.
     
  37. BlueRaiderFan

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    Yes am embryo...
     
  38. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    Embryo is just a stage of development. If it is a human embryo it is a human life. If scientists found an embryo of an organism on Mars they would say they have found life on Mars. Embryo is a way to describe a stage of life. Humans go through stages of development such as zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, etc. Calling something an embryo does not mean it is not a life.
     
  39. crposton

    crposton True Blue
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    You may say an embryo does not deserve the same protections as an infant, but it is still stopping a human life from forming. That is ending a human life. Abortion does that. You are okay with that. I am not.
     
  40. BlueRaiderFan

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    You're ok with women dying from back alley abortions. You can say you aren't, but you are.
     

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