FOOTBALL Middle Tennessee (2-7, 1-4) vs FIU (4-5, 1-5), (Salute to Veterans and Armed Services), 2:30PM, Saturday, November 11, 2023

[ewglenn]

He's like some kind of third-world dictator - he just surrounds himself with cronies and henchmen who he can trot out to spout about how great he is, and how good of a job he's doing, and how it's all everyone else's fault when his woeful incompetence leads to these results year after year. He greases the right palms with his "donations" and it'll take some kind of coup to get him out.

I actually was discussing MT football with a UT guy the other day, and he actually said "well, Stockstill's done a lot for that university". I almost spit out my drink, but I didn't because that guy wasn't being facetious and it was Old Fitz 17 year and I ain't wasting that.

That's the genuine outsiders opinion - they don't pay attention to the results or attendance (or lack thereof), they just assume that after 18 years, he's a lovable old MT institution that "gives back" and certainly he could have left and didn't (no one stays at a G5 program for that long - if they're bad they get fired, if they're good they move on), so he must be loyal to a fault.

The thought that he made it near 20 years with no success at all and is still around just doesn't compute.

I’ve got a die hard UT booster and a die hard Illinois booster that work for me. They both felt the same way. Everyone not familiar with our program thinks he has done well. I was under that impression before I became familiar with the program. Unfortunately we need some really rough years stringed together to get some new blood in here. If he limps to a 5–7 season no one will be pressuring him because “he won 3 in a row to close the season”. It’s hard to root against the team but I’m a UTEP and SHSU fan the next two weeks.

 

[JohnDavidBlue]

Totally Agree Doug,

I have, on the rare occasion, discussed this with people not related to the program and their consensus is that Stock has had success and is good FOR the program. It is only after some short discussions of what defines success that I get a puzzled look and then the discussion is followed by "that's not great".

It's so bizarre. And you know what...when I used to hear the name Watson Brown, I always thought that he was connected to his school and a good fit. I never cared enough to peer into the abysmal record and middle of the road results so I can't fault these people who just don't know. We just don't have enough people who care.

 

[DisgruntledAlum]

I've had same discussion... Just won a bowl vs X... But, as soon as the rest of the info comes out, it's oh my... I didn't know..

 

[MidTennMtneer]

I think we've all had those same discussions with football friends. Last year I brought a WVU diehard and a UT. Both left seeing what I see, but before, neither really understood. And we won that game.

That's what makes this so frustrating. A positive picture is painted in marketing, but when the true numbered facts are laid out, a totally different picture is painted.

I'm waiting till end of season to do a full rundown and comparison against some of our peers, but it isn't looking good. And I honestly find myself hoping we lose the next two. I was hoping we'd lose Sat so he'd have a possibility of finishing with an overall losing record really.

 

[TrueBlue147]

Another problem is that people think we have zero fan support. They think Stockstill is doing a good job considering we don't really have any fans or good facilities. They don't see the real connection between the two. The REASON we have no fan support and poor facilities is because he has been here forever.

 

[blueraiderJT]

To slightly change the topic a little. Here's what burns me up about this year's team.

How in the world....

can we hold Mizzou to the lowest points they've scored all year? (with the exception of UGA and UGA only held them to 3 points less). UT just lost to them by 35-7. We lost by freaking 4 and had the ball in their field with a chance to score

can we play Liberty better than anyone they've played all year. SHSU held them to less points but we put more points on them than anyone else they've played.

can we hold New Mex st to the lowest points they've scored all seaon. NMSU put way more up on WKU than us.

can we score the largest point margin on FIU and hold them to the least points they've scored all season. (tied with Liberty but we put up 2 more points than they did) Like WTH

can we only score 3 more points at home vs CSU than Utah Tech did on the road vs CSU?
-------------------------------
We can do all of those things and still only have 3 wins right now. Makes zero sense. I would argue that we have more player talent than is being properly used and more player talent than coaching talent because if we can do the first 3 things on that list consistently along with taking advantage of the situation better with better game management, we can and would have a winning record right now with some nice wins to boot. I doubt one change will even be made on the staff. That's gonna be the most telling thing this offseason. If not one change is made by Stock, then not only does he have no pressure, the A-dept doesn't either. We are in it til 29.

 

[MidTennMtneer]

To slightly change the topic a little. Here's what burns me up about this year's team.

How in the world....

can we hold Mizzou to the lowest points they've scored all year? (with the exception of UGA and UGA only held them to 3 points less). UT just lost to them by 35-7. We lost by freaking 4 and had the ball in their field with a chance to score

can we play Liberty better than anyone they've played all year. SHSU held them to less points but we put more points on them than anyone else they've played.

can we hold New Mex st to the lowest points they've scored all seaon. NMSU put way more up on WKU than us.

can we score the largest point margin on FIU and hold them to the least points they've scored all season. (tied with Liberty but we put up 2 more points than they did) Like WTH

can we only score 3 more points at home vs CSU than Utah Tech did on the road vs CSU?
-------------------------------
We can do all of those things and still only have 3 wins right now. Makes zero sense. I would argue that we have more player talent than is being properly used and more player talent than coaching talent because if we can do the first 3 things on that list consistently along with taking advantage of the situation better with better game management, we can and would have a winning record right now with some nice wins to boot. I doubt one change will even be made on the staff. That's gonna be the most telling thing this offseason. If not one change is made by Stock, then not only does he have no pressure, the A-dept doesn't either. We are in it til 29.

100% our coaching is awful. I'm betting on staff shuffling, but not expecting anyone fired. A friendly resign maybe, but that's it.

I think WKU is just in Stock's head. Period.

CSU, LU, and Jax. We had leads on all three in the 2nd half and blew it. We were up by double digits against Jax.

All that is coaching and adjustments. I honestly think even with our smaller OL we would be better with better coaching and a better offensive scheme that catered to that smaller OL. Stock has to be one of the most stubborn coaches ever and that comes from how stubborn Insell can be with adjustments. Stock is the definition of play not to lose.

It just proves all this talk of facilities and fans will fix it all is BS. Will it help, absolutely. But it isn't the reason we aren't winning.

 

[blueboro007]

To slightly change the topic a little. Here's what burns me up about this year's team.

How in the world....

can we hold Mizzou to the lowest points they've scored all year? (with the exception of UGA and UGA only held them to 3 points less). UT just lost to them by 35-7. We lost by freaking 4 and had the ball in their field with a chance to score

can we play Liberty better than anyone they've played all year. SHSU held them to less points but we put more points on them than anyone else they've played.

can we hold New Mex st to the lowest points they've scored all seaon. NMSU put way more up on WKU than us.

can we score the largest point margin on FIU and hold them to the least points they've scored all season. (tied with Liberty but we put up 2 more points than they did) Like WTH

can we only score 3 more points at home vs CSU than Utah Tech did on the road vs CSU?
-------------------------------
We can do all of those things and still only have 3 wins right now. Makes zero sense. I would argue that we have more player talent than is being properly used and more player talent than coaching talent because if we can do the first 3 things on that list consistently along with taking advantage of the situation better with better game management, we can and would have a winning record right now with some nice wins to boot. I doubt one change will even be made on the staff. That's gonna be the most telling thing this offseason. If not one change is made by Stock, then not only does he have no pressure, the A-dept doesn't either. We are in it til 29.

You are right. Have been saying all year we have some quality playmakers on this team but it sure has not translated into wins.

 

[MT01]

I firmly believe it boils down to two things that highly correlated. CRS cannot manage the roster and there's too much reliance on low hanging fruit in the recruiting cycles.

Every single year you can count on two groups that extreme weak links. It almost always includes the offensive line. I think they have been very good at finding QB's and WR's. Safeties have typically been a strength too.

But every year it's either OL and DL. Or OL and RB's. Or OL and DBs. In the off year we have a decent OL, the DL and most of the rest of the defense is terrible.

This leads to the one thing we are most consistent about. And that's a team that is inherently inconsistent and overmatched a couple of position groups. Never do we see a complete team. A complete roster. Which is precisely the reason we have no conference championships, but can sometimes knock off P5 teams. We simply can't do it consistently for a full season against the better teams. We almost always lose to competent teams that end the year with winning records.

 

[DisgruntledAlum]

Our coaching staff is lazy, especially on the recruiting trail.

Have you noticed that many of the athletes we get, when you see their Top 5, rarely is another G5 school listed. Every once in a while, you will see a service academy listed, but most of the time, we are completing against OVC type schools.

 

[SpaceRaider]

 

[AustinLewis]

I firmly believe it boils down to two things that highly correlated. CRS cannot manage the roster and there's too much reliance on low hanging fruit in the recruiting cycles.

Every single year you can count on two groups that extreme weak links. It almost always includes the offensive line. I think they have been very good at finding QB's and WR's. Safeties have typically been a strength too.

But every year it's either OL and DL. Or OL and RB's. Or OL and DBs. In the off year we have a decent OL, the DL and most of the rest of the defense is terrible.

This leads to the one thing we are most consistent about. And that's a team that is inherently inconsistent and overmatched a couple of position groups. Never do we see a complete team. A complete roster. Which is precisely the reason we have no conference championships, but can sometimes knock off P5 teams. We simply can't do it consistently for a full season against the better teams. We almost always lose to competent teams that end the year with winning records.

I’ve been saying something similar for a while.

And quite frankly, the struggle to build a complete roster is the reasons Stock is a career .500 coach. You can average 6 wins a year while relying on a handful of superstars, but you can’t win a championship without a complete team (Schedule also plays a role too).

On one hand, I understand the recruiting struggles. Facilities (or lack thereof) affects recruiting. Not just from a player‘s POV, but also staffing POV. MT’s off-field staff is smaller than WKU and Liberty. But I’m not sure the SAPC makes .500 coach a .750 coach / championship coach, especially since Stock has been unwilling to make chances to the staff (Mallory, West, etc)

Add the overall lack of NIL / co-op support & it’s a recipe for disaster.

And it’s probably not gonna change until Stock says “I’m done.” Because it’s ALL in Stock’s hands (because of the buyout).

 

[AustinLewis]

I’ve been saying something similar for a while.

And quite frankly, the struggle to build a complete roster is the reasons Stock is a career .500 coach. You can average 6 wins a year while relying on a handful of superstars, but you can’t win a championship without a complete team (Schedule also plays a role too).

On one hand, I understand the recruiting struggles. Facilities (or lack thereof) affects recruiting. Not just from a player‘s POV, but also staffing POV. MT’s off-field staff is smaller than WKU and Liberty. But I’m not sure the SAPC makes .500 coach a .750 coach / championship coach, especially since Stock has been unwilling to make chances to the staff (Mallory, West, etc)

Add the overall lack of NIL / co-op support & it’s a recipe for disaster.

And it’s probably not gonna change until Stock says “I’m done.” Because it’s ALL in Stock’s hands (because of the buyout).

For clarification : The MT FB offices don't have the space to expand to match WKU / Liberty's off-field staff. They will when the SAPC opens. Will it make a noticeable difference? Time will tell.

But as so many have pointed out. Recruiting the last few years has been a struggle. I have my theories, but that's what they are. Theories.

 

[MidTennMtneer]

For clarification : The MT FB offices don't have the space to expand to match WKU / Liberty's off-field staff. They will when the SAPC opens. Will it make a noticeable difference? Time will tell.

But as so many have pointed out. Recruiting the last few years has been a struggle. I have my theories, but that's what they are. Theories.

It's easy to come up with more than theories when we know the staff doesn't have relationships with many, many mid-state schools and when we look at the offers of our recruits.

But your point is still valid as there are additional inner workings none of us are privy too.

 

[ewglenn]

For clarification : The MT FB offices don't have the space to expand to match WKU / Liberty's off-field staff. They will when the SAPC opens. Will it make a noticeable difference? Time will tell.

But as so many have pointed out. Recruiting the last few years has been a struggle. I have my theories, but that's what they are. Theories.

What are your theories?

 

[DisgruntledAlum]

The recruiting is awful. Majority I've seen do not have 1-A offers, except ours.

Sure, there are occasional ones with academies listed. but overall, we're competing with 1-AA schools.

There are some outliers in there, but predominantly not. We should be competing with peer schools, at least offering.

 

[AustinLewis]

What are your theories?

1) Poor evaluation. IMO, MT has signed far too many guys where MT was their only FBS offer (or one of 2). Either you are seeing something that 60 other G5 programs aren't, or your eyes are wrong. Most of these guys are small, undersized, lack the frame to develop into FBS players

2) Roster construction. You can whine & complain about the transfer portal & NIL all you want, but find a way to use it to your advantage. Use portal as "FA" to build your roster for the short-term (& the long-term). You almost need a NFL mindset to roster construction now.

3) Staffing. Not gonna lie. MT is understaffed. When you peer schools have larger staffs, it's hard to compete. It's an off-the-field arms race.

4) On-field coaching. You can recruit the best athletes but if you develop them, it doesn't mean much. Guys like Mallory, West, and others have been around long enough to realize they are either : 1) a liability on the recruiting trail; 2) Their units are a liability on the field.

5) Recruit aggressively. There are a couple of guys on staff that are serious liabilities on the recruiting trail. And it's not that hard to figure out who they are ff you go back several years & listen to what the recruits say. But it goes beyond the staff. But their approach. It seems they are "settling" rather than aggressively pursuing players that will elevate the program.

 

[DisgruntledAlum]

Not sure if anyone else is recruiting him.

 

[ewglenn]

Not sure if anyone else is recruiting him.

View embedded media

He does have an offer from UNLV and has had some interest from Fresno St.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

Not sure if anyone else is recruiting him.

View embedded media

Somebody might want to send him an updated crowd shot of the home side for the past several seasons. Wouldn’t want him to get here on a visit and ask the same question as one of our players did on Senior Day, “where everybody at?!?!”

 

[RaiderDoug]

3) Staffing. Not gonna lie. MT is understaffed. When you peer schools have larger staffs, it's hard to compete. It's an off-the-field arms race.

My only comment as to this - from what I've been able to gather over the years, MT has been at or near the top of whatever conference they've been in in spending and budget.

This program certainly doesn't have the funding compared to the SEC, but compared to the Sunbelt/CUSA peers, it's been one of the money programs.

It doesn't go to support staff. We know it didn't go into keeping up facilities. It's not into recruiting. It doesn't appear to be invested into any type of program infrastructure.

From what I gather, revenue was never less than 31 million. That's hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue since Stock was here, yet we're too broke to fire our deadbeat coach, we have no support staffing, we have no facilities.

Here's an interesting link:

Sportico’s Intercollegiate Finance Database

Sportico is maintaining an interactive, real-time database that tracks the official balance sheets of public FBS university athletic departments.

www.sportico.com

So, if you look at 21-22, our revenue was 35 million. So were our expenses. Yet, it looks like 11 million of that went directly to coaching and admin salaries. Over 30% of our entire athletic department budget goes to salaries. For an athletic department that has won virtually nothing of any importance.

Where did it go? That's exactly where it went - some cronies pockets.

 

[TrueBlueFB_23]

1) Poor evaluation. IMO, MT has signed far too many guys where MT was their only FBS offer (or one of 2). Either you are seeing something that 60 other G5 programs aren't, or your eyes are wrong. Most of these guys are small, undersized, lack the frame to develop into FBS players

2) Roster construction. You can whine & complain about the transfer portal & NIL all you want, but find a way to use it to your advantage. Use portal as "FA" to build your roster for the short-term (& the long-term). You almost need a NFL mindset to roster construction now.

3) Staffing. Not gonna lie. MT is understaffed. When you peer schools have larger staffs, it's hard to compete. It's an off-the-field arms race.

4) On-field coaching. You can recruit the best athletes but if you develop them, it doesn't mean much. Guys like Mallory, West, and others have been around long enough to realize they are either : 1) a liability on the recruiting trail; 2) Their units are a liability on the field.

5) Recruit aggressively. There are a couple of guys on staff that are serious liabilities on the recruiting trail. And it's not that hard to figure out who they are ff you go back several years & listen to what the recruits say. But it goes beyond the staff. But their approach. It seems they are "settling" rather than aggressively pursuing players that will elevate the program.

Point blank need better OL and even with what they have much better OL coaching & development. Also, some a hot head or two in the DB unit needs a coming to Jesus moment. They have cost their team at least a couple of losses over their character and lack of discipline. We only lost vs NMSU because we absolutely could not run the ball. They were dropping back double covering receivers just begging us to run & against so few defenders in the box we still could not run the freaking ball. That’s frustrating & a big spotlight on the OL & OL coaches. We run at all with any success & our passing game opens up and we might just roll that bunch. Anybody with any football sense could see that. There’s too much talent on that team to not get the OL fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s the difference in reversing many L’s to W’s. Tabs, WRs & QBs too good for this outcome & it weighs mostly at the feet of the OL and some questionable play calling. This team should never have the # of 3 plays & out that they do. It’s a real head scratcher.

 

[AustinLewis]

My only comment as to this - from what I've been able to gather over the years, MT has been at or near the top of whatever conference they've been in in spending and budget.

This program certainly doesn't have the funding compared to the SEC, but compared to the Sunbelt/CUSA peers, it's been one of the money programs.

It doesn't go to support staff. We know it didn't go into keeping up facilities. It's not into recruiting. It doesn't appear to be invested into any type of program infrastructure.

From what I gather, revenue was never less than 31 million. That's hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue since Stock was here, yet we're too broke to fire our deadbeat coach, we have no support staffing, we have no facilities.

Here's an interesting link:

Sportico’s Intercollegiate Finance Database

Sportico is maintaining an interactive, real-time database that tracks the official balance sheets of public FBS university athletic departments.

www.sportico.com

So, if you look at 21-22, our revenue was 35 million. So were our expenses. Yet, it looks like 11 million of that went directly to coaching and admin salaries. Over 30% of our entire athletic department budget goes to salaries. For an athletic department that has won virtually nothing of any importance.

Where did it go? That's exactly where it went - some cronies pockets.

Staffing isn’t just about how much they spend on staff, but how many guys they have on staff. And based on the data you provided (and data I’ve seen in the past), MT staffing budget is comparable with peers, but the lack of space means they are behind.

But you’ve hit on an underlying point of frustration that I’ve seen with a LOT of MT fans. They’ve spent $$$ on aparrel. They’ve spent $$$ on tickets. They’ve traveled to road games. They’ve donated to BRAA. Everything you want in a fan…

And they show up on Saturday to see a rusted stadium, another embarrassing home loss to WKU, etc.…

Fans are like “where is my money going? Where has it gone?“ They begin to believe MT isn’t a worthwhile investment of their time, energy, effort, etc…

 

[blue rai]

It’s really hard to win when you can’t run the football. We are currently ranked 106 in rushing. Liberty, Jax State, and NMSU are all ranked in the top 15 nationally. This has been a problem for several years and we will continue to struggle until it is corrected. Even last week in our best performance of the season our OB’s were our leading rushers. That is only going to get your qb injured over time. Overall, I feel like Nick has been pretty solid this year!

 

[MidTennMtneer]

It’s really hard to win when you can’t run the football. We are currently ranked 106 in rushing. Liberty, Jax State, and NMSU are all ranked in the top 15 nationally. This has been a problem for several years and we will continue to struggle until it is corrected. Even last week in our best performance of the season our OB’s were our leading rushers. That is only going to get your qb injured over time. Overall, I feel like Nick has been pretty solid this year!

I have zero issues with Nick. Dude has balled it out, especially considering the line "protecting" him.

We haven't had a 1000yd rusher in years. And when we do, just as you stated above, it's a QB.

'19 O'Hara QB
'16 Mathers RB
'09 Dasher QB

That's it in 18yrs. In fact there's only been 3 other years they had a rusher even hit 800yds. We've only had a QB hit 3000yds four times, and Brent was three of those. That would be fine if we were known for a shutdown defense.
Granted part of this can be attributed to scheme, but the bulk is awful OL play. We've never had a truly balanced attack, thus never a championship. Stock has had seven different OCs and three of them only lasted 1yr.

EDIT....when he was hired in '05 he said, and I quote, "I want to control the pace of the game. It will be basketball on grass." UMMMMM....nope on both. 1000% not on part one as 3&out is not controlling the pace.

 

[Hop45]

Point blank need better OL and even with what they have much better OL coaching & development. Also, some a hot head or two in the DB unit needs a coming to Jesus moment. They have cost their team at least a couple of losses over their character and lack of discipline. We only lost vs NMSU because we absolutely could not run the ball. They were dropping back double covering receivers just begging us to run & against so few defenders in the box we still could not run the freaking ball. That’s frustrating & a big spotlight on the OL & OL coaches. We run at all with any success & our passing game opens up and we might just roll that bunch. Anybody with any football sense could see that. There’s too much talent on that team to not get the OL fixed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s the difference in reversing many L’s to W’s. Tabs, WRs & QBs too good for this outcome & it weighs mostly at the feet of the OL and some questionable play calling. This team should never have the # of 3 plays & out that they do. It’s a real head scratcher.

It has been said before many times on here, but if he didn't fix the OLine when his own son was getting smacked, he ain't gonna fix it now. Polly's retirement > QB health & well-being.

 

[MTLynn]

It has been said before many times on here, but if he didn't fix the OLine when his own son was getting smacked, he ain't gonna fix it now. Polly's retirement > QB health & well-being.

The bottom line is that football is irrelevant to sidney 7 wood. That's why the school's half-assed president has kept the half-assed football coach.