Embarrassing...

[THEBLUERAIDER]

Again, good deal. Do what you gotta do.

You don't have to be a member of the BRAA or season ticket holder to be a fan. Never said that. You said you stopped supporting the team (I don't know if you meant financially only or in general) after the 2 win season. I just wondered why you continuously post, most often negatively, on a message board for a team that you don't support.

And j don't feel I'm wasting my time by supporting my school/team. I have a great time at the games and watching with friends and family. Yes, I want us to win every game, but I will never pull my support if we don't.

How has pulling your support worked out for you?

 

[TeKEraider]

The irony the lack of financial support is the biggest road block we face. Whether it's recruiting or a coaching change. I will tell you what I have found is the ones that are the most vocal about pulling support gave the least to begin with if they ever supported at all.

 

[dukewayne]

I get that most on this board are the hardcore supporters. As one would expect.

I know WIley has tended to be in quite a few arguments or debates over the years, to put it politely. As much as the hardcore supporters want support and success for the program, I would think that would include wanting great attendance. As much as Wiley may grate on some, he may have some valid points to at least consider. Judging by the attendance and likely attendance in upcoming games, there are likely a whole lot more people like him. The difference, those people don't even care enough to voice their reasons for staying away on gameday. Some sort of frustration, aggravation, or something similar can clearly get people to voice their frustrations. I get that it's no always pleasant. I'm just trying to say that just maybe some of his points about losing interest, apathetic, etc etc are likely similar to many of those potential fans on gameday that appear to be staying away. Plus, those people don't even care enough to voice there reasons for staying away. They just don't come to games. As much as most of us would like to see MT succeed and grow, much of that is likely to come by way of winning and buzz drawing out people to attend games. With the overall changes to sports by way of media including the internet, new fans and casual fans are real difficult to capture. It's likely going to take a bunch of winning and buzz. People will come out for that environment. The casual fans just aren't going to come out for average play with little to no excitement.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

The irony the lack of financial support is the biggest road block we face. Whether it's recruiting or a coaching change. I will tell you what I have found is the ones that are the most vocal about pulling support gave the least to begin with if they ever supported at all.

And maybe some of us don't feel the need to post our (previous) BRAA giving level, number of years or capital campaign contributions. I see the very same things happening at MT that happened at "Tigah High" from 2006-2011. A Head FB Coach who lobbies for and receives a golden parachute contract, an AD who appears to no longer be fully invested in the position or the University, and a culture of mediocrity on W/L expectations vs. just being bowl eligible. I could be wrong but this is how I "feel" and my giving is based on those feelings. No one has even addressed the new position that dotted line reports to Dr. McPhee created for the former golf coach and I can't figure that one out. I will continue to post what I feel and in a manner that doesn't attack others for doing the same. Bottom line is we all have degrees from MT and we care. We just express it differently.

 

[sWiley]

How has pulling your support worked out for you?

I've been able to keep over $500 in my pocket since cancelling season tickets and we still suck. Nothing's changed, which was my original point.

 

[TeKEraider]

Everybody's giving level is posted in the program so it's not exactly private information. I can understand people who say they don't care anymore. I am not wired that way but I get it. I can understand never donating because that is not where you want your money to go. I can understand that finances change and you have to cut back. What I don't get is people who were committed enough to give a short time ago and say they still care acting in manner that is self defeating to their stated goals(ie firing the coach)just because they are unhappy. It's a grown up version of a tantrum imo. My kids used to do that but out grew it. Too each their own. It's a free country express away.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

Well, Teke you took a cheap shot at me and I've never called for Stock's firing. I don't agree with his new contract or the way it was "sold" in the media by tying it to the Cost of Attendance. And until this year, I was a consecutive years donor, BRAA member and season ticket buyer since becoming a MT alum in '05.

 

[TeKEraider]

You also said you drastically cut your donation over TW being hired and CM not personally contacting you. This was after back to back 8-4 seasons. TW by all accounts that aren't message board posts(we all know how accurate those have been regarding coaches) , has been doing an above average job. DL has been one of our biggest areas of improvement. If you think I m taking cheap shots at you that's fine but I watched your spiral on the tiger board. You're starting the spiral here. We're more tolerant here so I expect it to go better for you here but not all of us have to pretend to like it.

 

[sWiley]

How is wanting to fire the coach a self defeating goal? I would argue the exact opposite.

Maybe if Massaro didn't give Stock a lifetime contract he might actually have some pressure on him to fire Buster and improve things.

Instead, we've got a coach with a .500 record who has been extended multiple times and remains at .500

Holy cow could Massaro be a bigger sucker? Stock is laughing all the way to the bank on that one and now I understand why he didn't leave for ECU. He's got a guaranteed 6 figure check here for the rest of his life for just going 6-6 every year.

I'm sorry but I want and demand better for my university and it's program.

 

[sWiley]

How is wanting to fire the coach a self defeating goal? I would argue the exact opposite.

Maybe if Massaro didn't give Stock a lifetime contract he might actually have some pressure on him to fire Buster and improve things.

Instead, we've got a coach with a .500 record who has been extended multiple times and remains at .500

Holy cow could Massaro be a bigger sucker? Stock is laughing all the way to the bank on that one and now I understand why he didn't leave for ECU. He's got a guaranteed 6 figure check here for the rest of his life for just going 6-6 every year and being mediocre. Boy I wish I could remain mediocre at my job and get raises, extensions, and not have a worry in the world. Must be nice.

And the worst part of it all is the people here trying to defend and/or find a silver lining in this miss. THE GUY HAS BEEN HERE TEN YEARS AND HAS DONE NOTHING, LOL. We've been a .500 program going nowhere for a decade and everyone just seems to be OK with it. Sorry if I have higher standards.

 

[MidTnBlues]

I think this may be a good time to point out that the ignore function on this site works very well. The only draw back is when someone responds to an ignored person you dont see the quoted message. Used it on a couple of those Vandy posters.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

You also said you drastically cut your donation over TW being hired and CM not personally contacting you. This was after back to back 8-4 seasons. TW by all accounts that aren't message board posts(we all know how accurate those have been regarding coaches) , has been doing an above average job. DL has been one of our biggest areas of improvement. If you think I m taking cheap shots at you that's fine but I watched your spiral on the tiger board. You're starting the spiral here. We're more tolerant here so I expect it to go better for you here but not all of us have to pretend to like it.

I'm gonna respond to you one more time before I put you on ignore and then maybe you'll reciprocate. Neither you or our Head FB Coach want to get into a public "character" debate with me about our D-Line Coach. Let's just leave it at that.

Click on my username, top right button "Ignore". Use it.

 

[TeKEraider]

Why would I care about your opinion of his character?

 

[Blueraider_Mike]

Wiley's point about Stock is probably spot on....who here really believes that under the current leadership we are going to turn into a real winner? I want to believe, but when i take my blue colored glasses off I see mediocrity and a small fan base infighting.

We are not growing. Yes we face a lot of challenges, but as someone who will be out there Saturday regardless I don't see how we are going to ever be a conference champion without changes.

 

[sWiley]

How could it not be spot on? This isn't a matter of opinion. This is a matter of the facts. And the facts are we are a .500 program under Stockstill over a ten year period and he continues to be rewarded with lucrative, lengthy extensions that equate to him having tenure here at MT despite failing to ever even win an outright conference championship.

I would be curious to know, that if in the history of 1-A football, if a coach has been at a university for 10+ years and continued to receive extensions despite never winning an outright conference championship. I seriously doubt it's ever happened before, except of course here at Middle of the Pack Tennessee State.

 

[bigbadjohn45]

Wiley's point about Stock is probably spot on....who here really believes that under the current leadership we are going to turn into a real winner? I want to believe, but when i take my blue colored glasses off I see mediocrity and a small fan base infighting.

We are not growing. Yes we face a lot of challenges, but as someone who will be out there Saturday regardless I don't see how we are going to ever be a conference champion without changes.

"....who here really believes that under the current leadership we are going to turn into a real winner?"

I don't, and I've been saying that for the past several years now. I believe Coach Stock's a good man who's done a lot of good things for our football program; but, after 9 1/2 seasons as our head coach, there's really no evidence anyone can point to that would suggest he's anything more than a mediocre coach with mediocre results. Too bad we're essentially stuck with him for he next several years with the long-term agreement he has.

 

[sWiley]

Exactly bigbadjohn45.....Nail, meet head.

I wish people would stop accepting his time here because of his long term contract. Just because Massaro made a huge mistake doesn't mean we cannot call for change. Just because it's not likely to happen doesn't mean we cannot demand it. Just because Massaro rewards and accepts mediocrity doesn't mean we have to also.

 

[dukewayne]

Well, I don't think there's any hiding a huge problem now. That crowd for the FIU game on a brilliant beautiful crisp autumn Saturday afternoon in Oct was abysmal. Pathetic is another descriptor that comes to mind. Whatever the case, it's not good.

Another factor to be considered is now what I'll call the ole ball coach effect. Something unforeseen about a needed change at HC and lengthy contracts is that some coaches might just resign. While most of us went through a change with a HC who seemed willing to wreck and divide the program to stay as long as possible, I'm not too sure coach stock would be willing to do such a thing. If things get in pretty rough shape where he doesn't feel that he's the guy any longer to turn things around, he may be the type of guy to gracefully step down. I'm not predicting that. I'm not saying that would happen anytime soon, but who knows what a couple of years might bring.

I would like to add though that if coach stock were to step down or otherwise part on reasonable terms within a couple of years, he would likely leave the MT HC job an extremely attractive job to hungry potential HCs.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

Well, I don't think there's any hiding a huge problem now. That crowd for the FIU game on a brilliant beautiful crisp autumn Saturday afternoon in Oct was abysmal. Pathetic is another descriptor that comes to mind. Whatever the case, it's not good.

Another factor to be considered is now what I'll call the ole ball coach effect. Something unforeseen about a needed change at HC and lengthy contracts is that some coaches might just resign. While most of us went through a change with a HC who seemed willing to wreck and divide the program to stay as long as possible, I'm not too sure coach stock would be willing to do such a thing. If things get in pretty rough shape where he doesn't feel that he's the guy any longer to turn things around, he may be the type of guy to gracefully step down. I'm not predicting that. I'm not saying that would happen anytime soon, but who knows what a couple of years might bring.

I would like to add though that if coach stock were to step down or otherwise part on reasonable terms within a couple of years, he would likely leave the MT HC job an extremely attractive job to hungry potential HCs.

Stock is the one who concocted the contract extension to 2023. Then he and Massaro packaged it up to sell it to the masses as a grand act of commitment to MT Football and the Cost of Attendance. A boss I worked for early in my career once told me, "You can tie a bow on it, but a bag of turds is still a bag of turds. Trust me, Stock ain't stepping down for the good of the program. Anyone who thinks otherwise is wishing for a Powerball hit.
I hate to say this but what happened yesterday is the only thing that will force McPhee to pull the trigger, empty seats on national TV broadcasts. The ECU game in 2009 with 4,000 fans in Memphis was the thing that made Memphis pull the trigger on Tommy West because a change was definitely needed. It's taken 5 1/2 years to fix his mess but it can be done.

 

[Raiderblue17]

How could it not be spot on? This isn't a matter of opinion. This is a matter of the facts. And the facts are we are a .500 program under Stockstill over a ten year period and he continues to be rewarded with lucrative, lengthy extensions that equate to him having tenure here at MT despite failing to ever even win an outright conference championship.

I would be curious to know, that if in the history of 1-A football, if a coach has been at a university for 10+ years and continued to receive extensions despite never winning an outright conference championship. I seriously doubt it's ever happened before, except of course here at Middle of the Pack Tennessee State.

We've got another Kermit Davis on campus Wiley.. Plain and simple

 

[RaiderDoug]

How could it not be spot on? This isn't a matter of opinion. This is a matter of the facts. And the facts are we are a .500 program under Stockstill over a ten year period and he continues to be rewarded with lucrative, lengthy extensions that equate to him having tenure here at MT despite failing to ever even win an outright conference championship.

I would be curious to know, that if in the history of 1-A football, if a coach has been at a university for 10+ years and continued to receive extensions despite never winning an outright conference championship. I seriously doubt it's ever happened before, except of course here at Middle of the Pack Tennessee State.

This post got me thinking, so I did some googling.

Stock is the 14th longest serving coach in the NCAA.

1987 Frank Beamer - .666%
1999 Bob Stoops - .794%
1999 Kirk Ferentz - .558%
2000 Gary Patterson - .755%
2000 Mark Richt - .738%
2001 Gary Pinkel - .642%
2004 George O'Leary - .571% (.547% at UCF)
2005 Mike Gundy - .672%
2005 Bronco Mendenhall -.699%
2005 Frank Solich - .637% (.570% at Ohio)
2005 Kyle Whittingham - .679%
2005 Less Miles - .731% (.790% at LSU)
2006 Pat Fitzgerald - .542%
2006 Rick Stockstill - .504%

All these #'s were taken from wikipedia.

Take this for what you will. I will say that Stock has some challenges that some of the other guys don't - let's face it, none of those other guys except maybe Solich and O'Leary are at programs that have to play 2 or more money games a year.

Now, if you look at it in conference - where each coach is facing programs more or less on equal footing (budget, support, facilities, etc, etc etc), which might be a better view of his coaching ability, Stock ranks 8th on that list in win %.

Rick Stockstill - .625%
Frank Solich - .602%
Mike Gundy - .598%
Kyle Whittingham - .598%
Kirk Ferentz - .542%
Gary Pinkel - .538%
Pat Fitzgerald - .413%


I can find merit in the argument that we have a pretty good coach who has done a lot for the university and certainly hasn't done anything to warrant dismissal, and if we can just catch a few breaks here and there, maybe we can take that step forward.

I think I can also agree with the guys who say - "geez, it's been 10 years and we've yet to take any significant steps forward or have any major breakthrough, and it's frustrating"

 

[Raiderblue17]

This means that Pat Fitzgerald is a Northwestern Alum who is taking the brightest kids at an academic instiution... besides him Rick has done worse than everyone else.

Considering that Fitzgerald is the Vanderbilt of the Big 10, with no public school trickery allowed its quite impressive.

Rick... he hasn't done much... sad to say... I just wish we played the same style of offense every game... We get so conservative...

 

[sWiley]

from an overall record standpoint, he is the worst of all of them mentioned. and we've played some of the easiest schedules in the country for the majority of the years he has been here....

 

[Raiderblue17]

Just want to ride the horse that gets us victories... We shut down the offense v. Vandy and Illinois b/c we were afraid to make mistakes... That's gotta KILL a team who wants to win, when you say "Guys lets play not to lose"

 

[RaiderDoug]

from an overall record standpoint, he is the worst of all of them mentioned. and we've played some of the easiest schedules in the country for the majority of the years he has been here....

Again, that's relative.

He's played an easy schedule with a team that's not anywhere near as powerful or has the resources of some of the others. We can't expect the guy to go into a gunfight and win when all we've given him to fight with is a dull spoon.

The truth is, a program like LSU or Oklahoma is likely going to have 5-6 or more built in wins, simply because of the advantage that program has over some of it's OOC opponents or even some of the have nots in their conference (think Iowa State or Vandy).

Stock get's no benefit of a single built in win, other than maybe the odd Tennessee Tech or Jackson State that shows up every now and then.

 

[Blueraider_Mike]

Again, that's relative.

He's played an easy schedule with a team that's not anywhere near as powerful or has the resources of some of the others. We can't expect the guy to go into a gunfight and win when all we've given him to fight with is a dull spoon.

The truth is, a program like LSU or Oklahoma is likely going to have 5-6 or more built in wins, simply because of the advantage that program has over some of it's OOC opponents or even some of the have nots in their conference (think Iowa State or Vandy).

Stock get's no benefit of a single built in win, other than maybe the odd Tennessee Tech or Jackson State that shows up every now and then.

Doug - your being way too kind...lets narrow it down some, Ohio would be the closest example of the above. Stock makes $800K, Frank Solich makes $488K per year. Who has the much better program?

There is NO sugar coating any of this. I am not saying that we need to find another coach right now, but I am saying when you net all of it out, we are not getting an ROI and if you would have said 10 years ago that our coach would be the highest paid in the our conference and we would be 61-60 with no championships - would we have said keep him on? We will never grow if this is acceptable.

 

[RaiderDoug]

Doug - your being way too kind...lets narrow it down some, Ohio would be the closest example of the above. Stock makes $800K, Frank Solich makes $488K per year. Who has the much better program?

There is NO sugar coating any of this. I am not saying that we need to find another coach right now, but I am saying when you net all of it out, we are not getting an ROI and if you would have said 10 years ago that our coach would be the highest paid in the our conference and we would be 61-60 with no championships - would we have said keep him on? We will never grow if this is acceptable.

I can get on board with what you're saying. I've said before, I'm squarely on the fence on this thing.

After 10 years, you'd think there would be something we could point to other than a co-championship and 1 bowl win. There's a serious lack of anything we can point to to hang our hats on over the last decade, and there's a serious lack of enthusiasm surrounding this program.

On the other hand, there are a lot of teams out there, in fact, probably the majority of the G5, that are not anywhere near as successful as we have been. There's a lot of good that has been done - our recruiting is getting better, our APR/Academics are top of the NCAA, and we generally have performed well on the field compared to our peers over the last decade.

 

[sWiley]

well, the g5 and p5 dynamics are different so im not going to argue over whats easier and what isn't for a coach. sure, lsu has some gimme games each year, but overall our schedule is much, much weaker to balance that out. the only fair thing to do here is compare to the other g5 coaches, frank solich & o'leary. Interestingly enough, O'Leary and Solich both joined their respective schools in 2005 so all 3 coaches have pretty much had the same amount of time to get the job done. Using your numbers.....

Frank Solich is 57% @ Ohio
O'Leary is 55% @ UCF (My numbers for O'Leary at UCF are much higher than what you've written here......I've got him above 62%...not 55%)
Stock is 50% @MTSU

Now I'm going to write up the resumes of each team & coach but do it incognito style. Do me a favor and rank the order of the most successful and least successful in your eyes and then I'll reveal who's who (you'll obviously know which one is mtsu....)

TEAM A......This team and coach won the Fiesta Bowl 18 months ago, finishing the season 12-1. This team/coach has won 4 outright conference titles since he became the coach there in 2005. They are 5-5 in bowls and have been to a bowl game every year except for two in this coaches tenure. This team/coach have been ranked numerous times in the top 25 polls and have beaten numerous top 25 teams. This coach is 81-49 since becoming the coach at this school and boasts a conference W/L record of 58-22.

TEAM B....This coach has a 66-50 record and has won 3 divisional conference championships. This team has been to 8 bowls under this coach and boasts a 2-6 bowl game record. Big wins under this coach include a 2012 win over Penn State to start the season in 2012 and followed that up with 6 consecutive wins to start the season 7-0. This team & coach was ranked #25 and then #23 that season in the AP Top 25 poll before eventually falling to a conference foe. In this coaches first game as the head coach in 2005, they defeated Pittsburgh 16-10 in overtime in front of the largest crowd ever in their home stadium. (Good job not laying an egg when the stadium is full). That same year, they also paid a visit to Illinois and beat the Illini on a last second FG..... - Despite being ranked #25 & #23 in the polls during this coaches tenure, this team has never beaten a top 25 ranked team.

TEAM C.....This team/coach has been to 4 bowl games and boasts a 1-3 record. He has an overall record of 60-59 and has shared 1 conference title in his time there as head coach. This team has never been ranked and has never beaten a ranked opponent. Some key wins for the program do include a win @ Georgia Tech and beating Maryland twice.


So here you have 3 programs, all G5 schools, who's coaches respectively have been there 10, 10, and 9 years. Which body of work is the best in your opinion? Which is the worst? Are the resumes and results of these teams even close??? Which coach do you think has the longest contract extension of the 3?

Please, do tell.

 

[MTBig Blue]

Bottom line...you have do to something on the field that gets you noticed in this day in age. With the gap widening between the haves and have nots, we will need a Memphis type year to get noticed and I sure as heck don't see that happening with Stock under the helm. Everything about our football program is mediocre, except for the crowds and those are generally pathetic.

This program needs a big-time shot in the arm and I'm afraid we'll have to wait another 4 or 5 years to get it. Don't get me wrong, I really like Stock. But if he has had 10 years to have his system in place and he is exactly .500, what makes us think it's going to happen in the near future.

 

[mtfblue]

Stock will be here until Brent is through playing

 

[FranklinRaider315]

Again, that's relative.

He's played an easy schedule with a team that's not anywhere near as powerful or has the resources of some of the others. We can't expect the guy to go into a gunfight and win when all we've given him to fight with is a dull spoon.

The truth is, a program like LSU or Oklahoma is likely going to have 5-6 or more built in wins, simply because of the advantage that program has over some of it's OOC opponents or even some of the have nots in their conference (think Iowa State or Vandy).

Stock get's no benefit of a single built in win, other than maybe the odd Tennessee Tech or Jackson State that shows up every now and then.

Look no farther than 100 miles north on I-65. Equal resources, equal scheduling and three coaches who were plucked by bigger schools after they joined CUSA and are still progressing towards a Conf Championship. WKU has passed us by.

 

[TeKEraider]

I know this dude is just trolling at this point but come on. We have beat them head to head and in the conference standings for the past 4 years until this one and there is still a lot of football left. They have consistently been ranked behind us recruiting. Let's pump the brakes on this passed us by stuff.

 

[RaiderDoug]

So here you have 3 programs, all G5 schools, who's coaches respectively have been there 10, 10, and 9 years. Which body of work is the best in your opinion? Which is the worst? Are the resumes and results of these teams even close??? Which coach do you think has the longest contract extension of the 3?

Please, do tell.

No arguments with your post.

There has been a problem with wins/accomplishments of significance over the past decade.

On the other hand, there's been

Look no farther than 100 miles north on I-65. Equal resources, equal scheduling and three coaches who were plucked by bigger schools after they joined CUSA and are still progressing towards a Conf Championship. WKU has passed us by.

WKU is on a nice little run, but we have beaten them more than they have beaten us in the last few years, and our record is mostly similar over the past 5 or so years.

That said, you're right, a few programs have passed us by at least this year. It is frustrating to see programs like Marshall and WKU get to highs we haven't reached yet.

But you fail to see the programs we have passed - which is probably about 75% of our conference and a good # of the G5.

That's kind of what makes this so frustrating. For the most part, the difference between having a Marshall and WKU breakthrough type season has been one or two games for us, and unfortunately the failure to show up under the biggest spotlights (bowls, rivals, P5 games).

If you look at it and say "Man, we've had 10 years, we're never getting over the hump", well, the evidence is in your favor.

There's also evidence to show that we've come pretty far, and if we could just get one or two breaks in key games and moments, we might be able to really start something special.