Who do you trade with?

[TeKEraider]

This talk of other programs success or passing us by got me thinking "Who would I trade athletic departments with?" . I limited it to what I considered peer institutions which is basically MAC, Belt and CUSA. We don't have aack money and the geography of the MW makes it hard to compare them to us. The catch is you get the whole dept. No cherry picking. If you only care about 1 sport it's easy to find a few but the more you care about the harder it is. For me it's basically 2.5 sports that matter. Fb, mbb and bb is a half. I dont care about wbb so for me our success there plays no factor. For some of you it might. I looked at records over five and 10 year windows.

Honestly I can only think of two or three that I would consider a swap with today and even then it's not a slam dunk. That's it. The three I would consider are la tech, Marshall, and Ohio. I could make a case for Odu based on fan support and being a young program. What was fascinating was to look at the programs that I was once envious of and compare the to us now. In 2005 there was no program I was more jealous of than UNT. Now not so much. In 2010 it was Troy. Seems silly now. So I wonder if 5 years from today it will seem silly to be envious of Marshall or Tech.

Even with those I could make a strong case for ours over theirs. So who would you rather be?

 

[SpaceRaider]

A good three. I have season tickets for football (first got them in 79), mbb, wbb, and bsb. So I think, I'd have a three of latech, Marshall, and wku, with ODU a close 4th.

 

[TeKEraider]

I am really surprised you put western on that list. Their hoops have dramatically dropped off since moving up in football. Their baseball is a dumpster fire. Minus this year in football which isn't over they have only finished better than us in 2011. I wouldn't trade places with them in any sport.

 

[SpaceRaider]

While I have a strong dislike of wku fans, there's a lot to like in the way their athletic department goes about their business. I'm not into bean counting wins and losses, but championships and post seasons. Things I consider also a part of a strong athletic program is branding, and traditions. Those three are stronger than MT. And those are areas where our own university needs to step up its game.

 

[SmithO1906]

When talking about total athletic departments I dont there is one I would want to trade for. We were the most complete department in the belt hands down.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

While I have a strong dislike of wku fans, there's a lot to like in the way their athletic department goes about their business. I'm not into bean counting wins and losses, but championships and post seasons. Things I consider also a part of a strong athletic program is branding, and traditions. Those three are stronger than MT. And those are areas where our own university needs to step up its game.

This. WKU has things going on.

 

[Hop45]

Not saying better than the ones already mentioned, but I think ULL would make the conversation.

 

[SpaceRaider]

Look, I'm not saying our athletic department doesn't have a lot of strong points and great people. It does. There's a lot our own university could take away from observing and learning what those schools do better and the expectations they have.

 

[TeKEraider]

Hop45, 2 months ago I would agree but they have big problems coming their way.

 

[Raiderclyde]

A good and tough question....really! Tradition has (or needs) to be a part of the equation, not just who has been ranked in FB top 25 the past 2-3 years or who's happens to be hot this year. Since Space named four, I'll do the same. Here goes:

1. Western Kentucky: Similar budget to us. Most similar in history and mission of the four. Rivals since 1914. First NCAA date in 1940. Final Four in 1971. Sweet 16s in Mens and Women's BB. 2002 1-AA National Champions in FB. Transitioned well to FBS. A solid graduate school.

2. Marshall: Good brand and extremely loyal fan base. Two 1-AA national championships in FB. Ranked football teams in 1999 and closed out #23 last year. Have high respect and regards for the institution. Has a medical school (Joan C. Edwards School of Medicine--also Edwards Stadium). Always a soft sweet spot in the heart for those families who lost their loved ones in the 1970 plane crash.

3. Louisiana Monroe: Done a lot on a shoestring budget (last I saw they spend less than Tenn. Tech). 1987 1-AA Championship. Have (former) NFL's Bubby Brister and Stan Humphries as alumni who have proven credentials. Also has a medical school. Facilities are nicer and they now has a super large video screen. Not much to speak about BB and Baseball. Main drawbacks are the Sun Belt Conference and poorer history in basketball.

4. Harvard: Offers world class education in nearly all academic fields. Huge endowment fund in the billions. NCAA Tournament appearances in basketball. Ivy league championships in football. Impeccable list of alumni and faculty. Main drawback: Not FBS in football.

 

[Raiderclyde]

Look, I'm not saying our athletic department doesn't have a lot of strong points and great people. It does. There's a lot our own university could take away from observing and learning what those schools do better and the expectations they have.

Agree. Think we could accomplish and achieve much more than what we have done. It's not all about money, its how we allocate human capital and superior decision making. Culture if you will. Certainly, corporate money and large gifts obviously help. However, most of what we built on campus was to make-up for the years (and decades) that we had severe austerity or outright neglect. One example was our old science building, we finally got it! But it took about 35 years to make it happen--beginning to end. In football, think some still possess some of the novel mentality about FBS Football rather than to move onto the next step of maturity with the program. WKU is about to reach that next step if they continue winning and continue to retain/replace coaches of their caliber. Same goes with Marshall.

Miss Dr. Walker's unique leadership and vision. Our leadership is basically status quo and an extension of Dr. Walker's vision, which is about fully implemented now. Academically, we need to be looking at 15, 25, 50 years down the road. For our athletics about 10-15 years in planning ahead.

 

[TeKEraider]

Interesting list Clyde. Would you really trade athletics with the last two? I mean of course I would take Harvard's academics but I was really just referring to athletics. No way would I give up our athletics for either of those but there are no wrong answers to the question . Just trying to see what people's expectations are.

Tradition is good but I'm really more interested in the recent past and future. I wouldn't trade our program for one with good history but is currently struggling. That's why I am little surprised by all the WKU love. This is just one year. They are about to turn over all their seniors from Florida that Taggart brought in and replace them with Brohms Kentucky recruits. I just don't see them sustaining when I look at their recruiting. Their basketball is going backwards. I certainly wouldn't want their hoops right now. Their attendance makes ours look good.

I am not saying we do everything better. I agree their are things we can learn from lots of programs. I would love to have wku's history and their corporate partners but to be honest I don't think they capitalize on either as well as they should. I wouldn't trade programs with them unless they can sustain their football success which I just don't see happening. I could be wrong. They could be the next Boise for all I know.

 

[Raiderclyde]

My three and four were very difficult choices. Put a lot of thought about who we could be if we had a blank sheet of paper or poster board to reflect a statement or image. I chose Monroe at number three because of their medical school, kinesiology, pharmacy, radiologists, occupational therapy, and related study programs. They're strong in women's athletics. For what they spend, seem to get the most for it---appears efficient. Certainly not envious of their 4-23 men's basketball season from 2012-13 or 10-17 in 2013-14. We moved from Sun Belt, so conference affiliation is inferior to C-USA. Facilities have been spruced up, that would be about even there (they do have a big replay board at Malone Stadium and upgraded sound). Have sold out their stadium before, technically we have not in FBS Era (GA Tech was close). Looked at Central Michigan, Rice, and East Carolina for this spot; this was very tough. Rice has an extremely small fan base (their championship game in C-USA looked like our stadium on Saturday). East Carolina has moved to AAC now, but they were a strong consideration. CMU offers Lacrosse, Gymnastics, Soccer, and Field Hockey --stronger minor sports. Not sure about the major sports year after year, but they do have a 1974 Division II Championship in Football and they defeated us in the MCB in 2006. Tough to weigh throughall that, but I don't get a burning desire to trade places. My intangibles seemed to come short based on recent performance with Ohio, Toledo, and NIU. Harvard was selected primarily on tradition and academics.

 

[Hop45]

Hop45, 2 months ago I would agree but they have big problems coming their way.

Yeah, I looked past that and based it on the brand, fan support, and stuff like that. I did not consider the recent issues.

 

[T2Tool]

This talk of other programs success or passing us by got me thinking "Who would I trade athletic departments with?" . I limited it to what I considered peer institutions which is basically MAC, Belt and CUSA. We don't have aack money and the geography of the MW makes it hard to compare them to us. The catch is you get the whole dept....be?

Excellent question and one of the most thought provoking post I've seen.

Of the top of my head when looking at programs as a whole, I don't really know the answer. But just wanted to say thanks for question and making me think.

 

[MTFNBY5]

Really good article this morning in the USA Today sports section in The Tennessean on the Toledo program and how the coach has brought them to the (so far) point where they have an unbeaten and ranked squad this year. Don't know about the entire athletic program, don't want to live in Toledo, but sure wish we could have had a breakout FB season like theirs.

 

[RaiderDoug]

I wouldn't trade with any of the MAC programs except for maybe NIU. Oddly enough, they have major attendance problems, despite being about as good a G5 team as you can find anywhere.

I wouldn't trade with any of the Sunbelt programs, because they're in the Sunbelt. I do envy the support places like GaSouthern and App State get.

I think ODU has a ton of potential. Marshall's good. WKU has a good team this year, but by and large we're a better football team and program.

I think a lot of us metro-located programs have the same problem with attendance. There's just too much else going on in places like Nashville, Miami (FIU/FAU, heck, even the U), Chicago (NIU) compared to places like Huntington, Statesboro, Boone, Jonesboro, Ruston, etc.

Our biggest advantage might be our biggest achillies heel. That's another discussion though.

 

[MTFNBY5]

If we were metro-located I think we could be much better off. Had MT been placed in Nashville (the state capital) instead of TSU we could have been in a place similar to Memphis. Had we been in a more rural area [Columbia (which was offered and turned MT down), Lawrenceburg, Winchester, etc) we would be a much smaller school but possibly with more community support and a wider sphere of influence but, we would probably still be in the OVC.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Not close enough to a metro area to be relevant yet not far enough away to be "the only game in town".

 

[Raiderclyde]

If we were metro-located I think we could be much better off. Had MT been placed in Nashville (the state capital) instead of TSU we could have been in a place similar to Memphis. Had we been in a more rural area [Columbia (which was offered and turned MT down), Lawrenceburg, Winchester, etc) we would be a much smaller school but possibly with more community support and a wider sphere of influence but, we would probably still be in the OVC.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Not close enough to a metro area to be relevant yet not far enough away to be "the only game in town".

For our audience born after 1985 or so, one wouldn't remember Columbia and Murfreesboro being practically same size towns, say from 1950-1985. For first half of the 20th century, Columbia was even slightly larger than Murfreesboro. And Shelbyville was barely smaller than Murfreesboro (9K in 1930 for M'boro vs 7K for Shelbyville). Murfreesboro was largely agricultural, think dairy farms and general farming and did not grow exponentially until about 1950. N.W. Broad Street (U.S. 41/New Nashville Highway) wasn't completely built until 1952. Sewart AFB was in Smyrna, State Farm came in the fifties, GE came in the fifties, Chromalox (where Office Depot is today) was big employer, Carnation Milk (behind Haynes Bros. where Broad/Memorial comes together), Red Rose Dairy (West College and Lytle, now cleared land), Murfreesboro Cedar and Cotton Gin (where Cannonsburgh is), Silk Mill (where Mayday Brewery is) where nylon and hosiery were made, Norris Mills (where City Center is, also had a smaller plant on Vine) all were major employers and generated $$$ for the local economy. Columbia had phosphate, iron ore, chemical plants, cotton, mule and livestock trade, and the Tennessee Farm Bureau Federation in the fifties. We are very fortunate to have had MTN, MTSTC, MTSC, and MTSU to have been a part of our community for 104 years. Think of where we would be without it!!

In the seventies, Columbia had 21K and Murfreesboro was just 26K. Then, at I-24 and 96 or 231 one was still out of town, think about that!! Today Columbia is 34K and Murfreesboro 120K. Think how great of a mistake that was not choosing MTN? Murfreesboro, for the refusal of a $100 payment, lost the State Capitol to Nashville in 1843. Really, two giant mistakes...we're really so much alike as communities. Our proximity to Nashville and I-24 has helped us along with MT. Columbia proper is 9 miles from I-65 via Exit 46 and it has hurt growth (despite the 10 foot strip annexation attempt in the late 1990's).

The real issue about Murfreesboro is it's sphere of influence. So hard to define for us. Are we Nashville? No. Are we urban? Yes, by census population. Are we small town rural America? Not anymore. We were 50-60 years ago. And we try to act small town; however, becoming less successful in doing so by the year because of the volume of growth. State projections have us larger than Chattanooga by 2035 at 228,000! The county 497,000! But, we don't behave much as an urban city. We're more suburban bedroom community to Nashville, just traverse on I-24 daily during rush hour. Clarksville has a better sphere as a hub. Cookeville does as well to 12 nearby Upper Cumberland Counties.

I like our city and campus. Mainly because I grew up here. But, "town and gown" operates as an enigma when it comes to MT and its athletic program. Hence my longstanding 37130 statement. Where else can we win the hearts from as a fan base. Tradition is big, and we haven't fully capitalized almost twenty years after announcing to the world as 1-A. That is the true frustration when one sees all the wasted resources and opportunities.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

WKU us representing the conference well only down 17-7 in Baton Rouge in the 3rd.

 

[AustinLewis]

WKU looked good until LSU's depth allowed them to take over layer in gand

 

[Blueraider_Mike]

Regardless of our challenges, our program is under-performing. Even with all the other SEC teams, etc - if we really had a winner, I am confident the atmosphere, support and our small stadium could be rocking.

My expectation is not SRO, my hope would be a program that would get the occasional 30K crowd with an average of 23-24K. Its very doable, just not with mediocrity. There are people that want to support the program, but you must give them something to support. We never really have done that.