BASKETBALL Middle Tennessee @ Murray State (ESPN+), 7PM, Saturday, December 7, 2019
- Thread starter SpaceRaider
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I dont think we have ever been blown out as many times as we have under the Mcdevitt era with any other coach. We may have loss games but many were competitive. Last year we loss many games by 20 plus and we are doing the same this year. It would be one thing if we were losing games but were competitive but we have just been getting down 20 plus points immediately against bad to average teams.
Sadly, the only narrative tonight we changed was getting blown out by an OVC opponent who we’ve been playing against for 90 years. Cannot defend this as just growing pains...coaching honeymoon is hereby over. Coach McDevitt is on notice that he owns this performance from this point forward. This looked like Division 2 basketball, not a C-USA program.
Terrible loss that we must rebuild from...pronto!
That was about as an embarrassing performance by a Blue Raider team that I can remember in my 25 years as a fan. There is no excuse for that.
I've defended and advocated for CNM to have time to build the team with a bunch of young players. I think CNM is a good recruiter, and I suspect he is a good guy. That is not getting the job done though. I'm now at the point that I think he is in over his head.
The team is now regressing. I was willing to accept a low point early in the season out in SC if the team went on from there to show improvement. Compared to the SC tournament, the 25 mins of good defensive effort vs Belmont at least seemed like an improvement. The defensive effort could be built upon but no, a week later and there was no effort or fight. That is unacceptable in my opinion.
What is more troubling is that CNM is seeming to recruit quality players, yet the team is getting worse. That is coaching. His good recruiting is exposing his inability to lead and motivate the team to perform successfully on game day. I now have no confidence that CNM possesses the toughness, tenacity, the killer instinct to whip these talented young men into an elite fighting machine.
Green is not being coached on good shot selection, and now it's his undoing. Sims almost seems lost when he is an outstanding talent with championship abilities and potential. Overall, the team just looks lost with a few players scoring or playing well individually for a few minutes on rawttalent & ability alone. That might have been enough to keep you in most games at UNC-A in the Big South, but it will get you killed at the level MT has become accustomed to competing and winning.
Lastly, Massaro & McPhee appear on pace to single handedly wreck MT athletics. I have zero confidence that they are willing or able to act decisively to remedy this mess of a basketball program that they have made 2 short years after it was a respected national program that could compete with and even win MT's fair share vs anyone in the nation.
I've defended and advocated for CNM to have time to build the team with a bunch of young players. I think CNM is a good recruiter, and I suspect he is a good guy. That is not getting the job done though. I'm now at the point that I think he is in over his head.
The team is now regressing. I was willing to accept a low point early in the season out in SC if the team went on from there to show improvement. Compared to the SC tournament, the 25 mins of good defensive effort vs Belmont at least seemed like an improvement. The defensive effort could be built upon but no, a week later and there was no effort or fight. That is unacceptable in my opinion.
What is more troubling is that CNM is seeming to recruit quality players, yet the team is getting worse. That is coaching. His good recruiting is exposing his inability to lead and motivate the team to perform successfully on game day. I now have no confidence that CNM possesses the toughness, tenacity, the killer instinct to whip these talented young men into an elite fighting machine.
Green is not being coached on good shot selection, and now it's his undoing. Sims almost seems lost when he is an outstanding talent with championship abilities and potential. Overall, the team just looks lost with a few players scoring or playing well individually for a few minutes on rawttalent & ability alone. That might have been enough to keep you in most games at UNC-A in the Big South, but it will get you killed at the level MT has become accustomed to competing and winning.
Lastly, Massaro & McPhee appear on pace to single handedly wreck MT athletics. I have zero confidence that they are willing or able to act decisively to remedy this mess of a basketball program that they have made 2 short years after it was a respected national program that could compete with and even win MT's fair share vs anyone in the nation.
Exactly right Clyde. I was thinking the same. MT did not even perform like a D1 team. MT looked like an D2 or NAIA program tonight. And this was not a Murray St at the top of their program like they usually are every few years. That was a young Murray team looking to rebuild and improve back to their typical high level of performance.
Unacceptable & no excuses.
ex
Except those were one offs and not a continuous pattern of blowouts against all D1 teams
Except those were one offs and not a continuous pattern of blowouts against all D1 teams
You mean the 0-for performance out in SC of getting totally dominated by everyone wasn't enough for the coaches to get the players attention? The coaches response after at least some effort vs Belmont and the quasi-exhibition game was to set the team up to rub their faces in losing horribly vs Murray St in order to get their attention?
I get it, CNM seems like one of the good guys. I would love for him to be successful. It must stand to reason that there was some explanation or plan to explain the horrible performance. I think it is as simple as he and the asst coaches are not getting the team motivated and ready to play competitively.
I can deal with the time it takes for young players to develop. I can understand players learning the system and making youthful mistakes. I accept that it would be hit or miss on winning while the team improves and develops. What I can't or won't accept and understand is a complete lack of effort by the team. The two primary areas that lack of effort shows up glaringly is defense and rebounding which were atrocious vs Murray St. If you don't have effort, you've got nothing. You lose me when you are not even trying. They embarrassed themselves, the program, and the name on the front of their jerseys.
Yeah, the defense was MIA. There were several times where Murray would rebound and pitch the ball ahead for an easy score.
Of course, we know that Kermit would have called a time out and chewed butt like a rabid dog. Nick obviously has a different style.
No doubt about it, when the players aren't responding to coaching, you see a lot of losses.
I expect, and I'm sure Nick does as well, to see the team play better against Mississippi.
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We have not looked very good. I don’t expect this team to play better until conference play. They simply don’t have talent right now. The losses of scurry and dishman set the team back as the talent gap increased. Defense is a team concept and is only as good as the weakest link. And there are many missing links defensively. I’m pumping the breaks on the comments that McDevitt may not be the right coach. It’s difficult to coach a lack of talent. He has had really only one full recruiting season. He has a vision and is committed to building a program the right way. Recent play was horrible but let’s give him time to recruit and see them develop. I believe he can coach, recruit and build a winning program.
If it were just some young guys struggling, that would be one thing. This lack of effort is getting established as a trend or even a norm for the team.
Given that my beef is with effort and fight, who is out or injured is not what so much concerns me. If 5 walkons were on the court, effort would still be a key factor. While I did not like losing to Murray, it was the lack of effort and fight that disturbed me. I could handle the loss if MT players fought with great effort and energy.
Given that my beef is with effort and fight, who is out or injured is not what so much concerns me. If 5 walkons were on the court, effort would still be a key factor. While I did not like losing to Murray, it was the lack of effort and fight that disturbed me. I could handle the loss if MT players fought with great effort and energy.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not hoping for CNM to fail or any such thing. I am done defending and advocating for patience with the team and coaches with the horrible display of no effort, energy, motivation, fight or toughness. This isn't based on just some struggles of a bunch of young players forced to play significant minutes. The lack of effort, discipline, and fight has continued to a degree that is troubling in my opinion.
I am concerned that CNM may not have that tough edge to instill and coach the players to fight for 40 minutes each and every game night.
Ironically, the frontcourt is not the chief offenders at this point. Johnson & Jackson are the two main players that are showing signs of life. Those two are showing at least a little heart. Lawrence and Millin had some good minutes vs Murray St also. They all still need to improve defending & rebounding, but at least they showed some signs of improvement despite the poor defense.
They all are evidence to me that CNM is recruiting players with good abilities, athleticism, and potential. The team desperately needs to turn around the effort and toughness on defense immediately. The whole team has to dig down deep inside and find the heart and hunger to say that they are better than this.
I am concerned that CNM may not have that tough edge to instill and coach the players to fight for 40 minutes each and every game night.
Ironically, the frontcourt is not the chief offenders at this point. Johnson & Jackson are the two main players that are showing signs of life. Those two are showing at least a little heart. Lawrence and Millin had some good minutes vs Murray St also. They all still need to improve defending & rebounding, but at least they showed some signs of improvement despite the poor defense.
They all are evidence to me that CNM is recruiting players with good abilities, athleticism, and potential. The team desperately needs to turn around the effort and toughness on defense immediately. The whole team has to dig down deep inside and find the heart and hunger to say that they are better than this.
After our sign of life against Belmont and the fact that apparently Murray is down a little this year I was expecting much more Sat. night. Looking as I do through my blue tinted glasses I really thought we would beat the Vagas spread of 9 and possibly have a chance to get a W. I've gotta quit getting my hopes up.
I must be a masochist since I decided to watch a replay before commenting. I was so disgusted after watching the first two possessions of the 2nd half I quit watching. These two possessions were, IMHO, a microcosm of the game. We had the first possession and proceeded to have an unforced turnover, their first possession of the 2nd half resulted in another of many layups/dunks. Is this not an indication of coaching?
And lets not just talk about half-time preparation for the 2nd half. Lets talk about scouting and "putting the scout into the game". Did Murray change their entire offense for the game? I doubt it. Yet we gave up layup after layup and open mid-range jump shots throughout the game. Have our players not been taught defensive rotation to prevent off side layups? And as for putting scouting into the game: Murray sure did - did you not see the two layups/dunks immediately on the first two possessions when we went to the 1-2-1 trap. The Racers immediately knew what to do.
Are we young? Yes - Do we have a short bench? Yes; but lack of effort, preparation, and discipline are inexcusable. Of the eight scholarship players we have available 6, yes SIX, are McDevitt recruits. I want to give this staff a chance but it's time to see consistent improvement regardless of opponent, youth on the squad, or the short bench.
I must be a masochist since I decided to watch a replay before commenting. I was so disgusted after watching the first two possessions of the 2nd half I quit watching. These two possessions were, IMHO, a microcosm of the game. We had the first possession and proceeded to have an unforced turnover, their first possession of the 2nd half resulted in another of many layups/dunks. Is this not an indication of coaching?
And lets not just talk about half-time preparation for the 2nd half. Lets talk about scouting and "putting the scout into the game". Did Murray change their entire offense for the game? I doubt it. Yet we gave up layup after layup and open mid-range jump shots throughout the game. Have our players not been taught defensive rotation to prevent off side layups? And as for putting scouting into the game: Murray sure did - did you not see the two layups/dunks immediately on the first two possessions when we went to the 1-2-1 trap. The Racers immediately knew what to do.
Are we young? Yes - Do we have a short bench? Yes; but lack of effort, preparation, and discipline are inexcusable. Of the eight scholarship players we have available 6, yes SIX, are McDevitt recruits. I want to give this staff a chance but it's time to see consistent improvement regardless of opponent, youth on the squad, or the short bench.
I understand your perspective and recognize the poor play. To the topic of game planning and execution; coaches design a game plan and players execute. A good game plan poorly executed results in a loss. A poor game plan well executed results in a competitive game. A poor game plan poorly executed is a loss. Based on what we saw second half of last year McDevitt puts together good game plans. From my perspective it’s the lack of execution. subpar or young talent does not execute. If we were in this situation four years into McDevitts tenure I would be in favor of putting the pressure on. Since this is one year and some change in I will be patient until he has three recruiting cycles. What is the alternative? Cut him loose now and start over. Not an option.
Nicely played Mighty Raider. I shared my perspective on what I believe should be done. What’s your suggestion?
Do you believe being the worst team in CUSA is acceptable?
What are your thoughts on our upper classmen's regression? Sims and Green are just shells of their formerselves at this point. C.J. Jones looked good to start the year and I heard was very good in practices last year....now he's nowhere to be found not even half way through the season.....???
The team has no chemistry. They do not look cohesive, ever. They play poor defense. They don't rebound well. They cannot shoot the ball. There are literally no redeeming traits about this "team." They are only a team by name, because they surely do not play like a "team." We have maybe 2-3 players that are playing like they belong in D1 right now which is mind-boggling to me. I don't understand how that is ever, under any circumstances, acceptable.
And for the record, I want McDevitt to succeed. I want him to sign 3 and 4 star players and take MT to new heights we have never reached before. I want to return to the NCAA tournament and make a Sweet 16, Elite 8, Final 4 push. I want McDevitt to be our guy. But how are we going to sign players when we are playing like one of the worst teams in D1? Nobody wants to play for a loser. Our NCAA tournament appearances and big win street cred is far gone at this point. All dried up. We are quickly becoming a laughing stock!
I am terrified at this point that we may have hired the wrong man. The team is regressing. Upper classmen are not getting better, they are getting worse. Our team cohesion and ability to play simple fundamental basketball seems to be regressing by the week. We don't even look like we belong on the same court as our opponents. What in god's name is going on ?
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One of the areas that is troubling, in my view, is that that this is not a team of low talent players. It seems CNM has done a decent job of recruiting good quality athletic players. That then makes the problem of coaching glaring when asking why is this team performing so horribly.
Green & Sims, it's inexplicable. CJ Jones is still scoring his share of points, but it's empty calories. His points are coming from his raw athletic ability when he simply gets the chance. His points are not coming in any meaningful way for the team as the team is not even competitive in their games.
One could try to break down and analyze each players performance. I think it is fools gold to do so at this point. The most glaring problem wrecking the whole team's performance is the overall lack of effort in most every aspect of the game. It's about motivation, discipline, and toughness. More so it is about will. Mostly, it comes down to heart. Right now, the team as a whole has none.
Green & Sims, it's inexplicable. CJ Jones is still scoring his share of points, but it's empty calories. His points are coming from his raw athletic ability when he simply gets the chance. His points are not coming in any meaningful way for the team as the team is not even competitive in their games.
One could try to break down and analyze each players performance. I think it is fools gold to do so at this point. The most glaring problem wrecking the whole team's performance is the overall lack of effort in most every aspect of the game. It's about motivation, discipline, and toughness. More so it is about will. Mostly, it comes down to heart. Right now, the team as a whole has none.
I think you pointed out the biggest problem with this team and that is there is no cohesiveness. They do not know how to play together. I do not know why, but it needs to be figured out. CNM is the one that has to figure that out and that is what he gets paid to do. Last year we had two bigs that were seniors and had been on winning teams. We do not have that this year. Hawthorne and Gamble were not world beaters, but they were good post players the provided experience. I think the talent is definitely there. I do think if we had Dishman and Scurry playing right now we would be more competitive, but I agree as we stand right now it is worrisome. I like to think the light will come on at one point, but I have not seen that yet.
As usual Wiley- you don't know sh!t... why is my name in all the CNM haters (Wiley, MT01) post?- y'all that hard up to try and make yourself feel better by acting like basketball experts? I'm sorry I had more important things going on in life, didn't watch the Murray State game until just last night- I don't comment about things I haven't seen first hand- perhaps a few of you should try that approach as well..
The trends (slow starts, foul trouble, perimeter defense, energy, effort, heart) are indefensible and while some of that is on the coaching staff (slow starts, shot selection, defensive approach/defensive game plan)- much of this teams current issues are on the players- especially the upperclassmen and it starts with a lack of leadership and then trickles down to many of the problems we all see on the court. If you think otherwise you've never been part of successful teams or been a leader in an good work environment. If some of you are truly experts then you know that team has had recent long lectures from the coaching staff about leadership and the current void.. I mentioned that was my observation a few games back in another thread and I know that to be true now.. leadership is a player controlled issue- the coaches cannot be team leaders- that has to come from one or more of the guys. It's not coming from Green, Sims, or Jones. Scurry will help when he returns but the other upperclassmen need to do their part- you cannot expect the 3 youngest players on the team to be the team leaders even if it is more within their personalities as I understand. One of those 3 guys has to step up at a leadership level because this team is more talented and skilled than last years squad but they're not even close to the performance level of that team which had major skill deficiencies.. Hawthorne and Gamble were those guys and it hasn't been replaced to this point..
As for this game you can't continue to have guys that allow straight line drives (Sims) and get your limited number of front line guys to pick up a foul 10 seconds into the game to be specific. 16 of the teams 19 fouls were on Millin, Crump, Jackson, & Johnson- most of them due to defensive breakdowns and their help-side rotation... In man-man Sims can't stay in front of anyone, Green and Jones' help-side rotation and off-ball positioning is terrible and they're leaving the front court guys in terrible situations. Does anyone think the players haven't been instructed on how to play these basic principles? Sims and Green would've at least heard it from the previous staff- these are basic principles that kids in HS have been drilled on- so it's not knowledge and comes down to the players to execute/perform what they've been told.
Ultimately everything is on the coaches mind you, but in my experience it's mostly on the players at this point and especially with where the issues are coming from. Many here will think I'm just defending the coaches but if you've ever played or even supervised other people at your jobs you know it's hard to get people to do what they should know and it's ultimately on all of us as individuals to perform. What is on the coaches is to re-evaluate the defensive game plan- if Sims continues to allow wet paper bags to get by him in man-man- you've either got to get out of that defensive scheme or get Sims out of the game.. if Jones and Green continue to get lost of the ball then get them out or change something.. if you're paying close attention the coaches are utilizing a bunch of different defensive schemes with varying results- but with foul trouble compounding the already short bench you start running out of options- if you disagree or think otherwise I'd love to hear some specific options you would deploy with your knowledge..
If the trend continues I guarantee you will see the lesser talented guys get more playing time and /or starts even if it means taking more lumps in the results column this year.
Sims seems to have lost confidence offensively is my initial thought- I don't recall his offensive scoring from last year being only in one area or another- he was fairly well rounded in how he was producing points.. it's common for a player to break out but now that he's on other teams scouting report from what he'd shown last year and they key in more/adjust to take away some things- for instance if he only drives right and can't go left the defense adjusts and he looks to have regressed when in reality previous teams/defenders allowed him to drive right into his strength/comfort areas..- so either he hasn't adjusted to that focus or he lost his confidence.. he doesn't seem assertive on either end and his passing has led to turnovers that show up in the stat sheet as other's TO's but they scramble rescue a bad pass and statistically he's been responsible for many other TO's that didn't end up in his column.. my guess it's between his ears at this point- kind of like a sophomore slump since he broke out last year-s o far that's what I believe in his case.. I think his slump offensively is affecting his defense effort- some guys need to get it going on offense before they lock in on D.. some guys are the opposite- he wasn't a great on ball defender last year either but the help-side D was better..
Green- I contend and commented numerous times last year that he would be a good 6th man type player. Has never struck me as an ideal starter since he's a rollercoaster- gambles on D and out of position a lot. He's an ok on-ball defender, not great but better than Sims when he's locked in. Def needs his offense to go before he engages fully in other areas- he's a one-way player- can't imagine anyone else here has seen anything else from him.. when Dishman got hurt the team lost it's best passer (yes, you heard that right) and Dishman would make all the guards shot selection better because in practices last year I saw his ability to attract attention and he makes excellent decisions with the ball leading to much easier inside-out open shots.. Scurry, Hawthorne did this as well in games last year but Dishman is a better passer and Green benefits from that- since that inside/out is missing all the guards but Green in particular are jacking too many poor shots without the defense working much at all..
In all I'm not sure either one have regressed in as much as they're not finding easy ways to produce on offense..
Leaders can be developed over time and it's usually just a natural dynamic where seniors leave and someone just steps up- usually the coaches don't have to work that hard for that to occur- unfortunately some guys (upperclassmen/starters/key contributors/glue guys, whatever) will never have the personality to be overly vocal- pressure the other guys into getting on board and setting the tone/example- the team has guys that will naturally do it over time but it's hard when it's the youngest guys who are deferring to the elder statesmen who aren't filling that role.
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I don't want to pile on. I'm sure he is a good guy and smart player, but there have been times I feel like he hurts us more than helps us with poor shot selection and turnovers. I am by no means an expert, but he seems to take more than his fair share of low percentage shots.
First I stated quite clearly that both the players and coaches share in the results- if you're going to come back at me at least acknowledge what I actually said or just move along man.. or learn how to comprehend what you read.
I have given specific reasons as to what is observable when it comes to these players.. Have you seen Sims give up straight line drives over and over again? Have you not noticed that Green is seldom in a position off the ball on defense to help creating more pressure on the frontline players? They were both coached by CKD and staff so if it was solely a coaching issue shouldn't he and Green be better defenders and have retained some basic principles and coaching along the way? Green has had 3 college coaches most of his collegiate time has been with other coaches and you think CNM is solely responsible for his performance at this point? You can't seriously believe that..
Your limited answer is that it's simply a bad hire and CNM is not a good fit/over his head but you're seem to want to ignore the actual reasons behind how the team is performing.. we understand that you always wanted Odom (who wasn't ever coming) or other candidates.. blah blah blah.. get over it already.
So let's hear more specifically what you think CNM should do? With the current team and the current players. If it's only on the coaches what exactly would you propose?
Here's an observation for you.
You're right. Green has had 3 college coaches during his time. And guess which one he's played most poorly for? Shouldn't he be getting better? Who's his current coach? Mmhmm. Let's blame the player though.
I don't recall Sims being that big of a defensive liability under Kermit Davis. Wanna know why? His @$$ would not be on the floor, that's why. If he wanted to stay on the floor, he had to play good D. So he did. Kermit Davis was a strict disciplinarian. NOBODY was staying on that court if they were playing bad defense, didn't matter how important or how good or how short the bench was. No exceptions. Sims has never played this poorly either in his collegiate career. Shouldn't he be getting better, not worse? Who's his current coach?
I guess we are blaming the players now though. LOL. McDevitt and his cronies will fit right in with Massaro and his squad. Major accountability problems across the board.
You're right. Green has had 3 college coaches during his time. And guess which one he's played most poorly for? Shouldn't he be getting better? Who's his current coach? Mmhmm. Let's blame the player though.
I don't recall Sims being that big of a defensive liability under Kermit Davis. Wanna know why? His @$$ would not be on the floor, that's why. If he wanted to stay on the floor, he had to play good D. So he did. Kermit Davis was a strict disciplinarian. NOBODY was staying on that court if they were playing bad defense, didn't matter how important or how good or how short the bench was. No exceptions. Sims has never played this poorly either in his collegiate career. Shouldn't he be getting better, not worse? Who's his current coach?
I guess we are blaming the players now though. LOL. McDevitt and his cronies will fit right in with Massaro and his squad. Major accountability problems across the board.
Would you like to provide specifics where he is wrong? He did say ultimately everything falls on the coach, but that the biggest issues are coming from the players at this point. A coach can install an amazing game plan and if the players do not execute, it will not work. On that same note it is the coach's job to figure out why they are not executing, or find someone that can. I do not think we can blame either the players or the coaches 100%. At this point there are issues everywhere.
You are going to say McDevitt and his cronies will fit right in and have major accountability problems when McDevitt has never said it was the players. I bet if you asked him he would put it on himself. Poor choice to disparage someone for what someone else says in his defense.
I disagree. The players and their effort/fundamentals/game plan are a direct reflection of this staff. If the players are playing poorly, and they have previously shown they are good players, then guess who the problem is?
Antonio Green was the WAC Freshmen of the F'ing Year. He led the WAC with 111 3's his sophomore year (37.2%), the 5th most ever in WAC history.
But yeah, the problem is the player!
He can say whatever he wants to publicly but I guarantee you he internally and within his staff blames this on Kermit's players. GUARANTEE it.
We'll never hear the end of how Kermit screwed this program and is the cause for all of this when the reality is yes, it was a setback, but not an excuse to become one of the worst programs in D1. There is never an excuse for that.
But go ahead and try to rationalize it away. Not gonna help us win games and most certainly isn't gonna help us on the recruiting trail. If I was this staff I would be quite concerned about this team becoming a doormat and talented recruits then not being interested. We were just starting to garner those 3 and 4 star players and now it's all at great risk of being pissed away.
You have not idea what he would say. You cannot guarantee anything like that. Complete nonsense, but par for the course for you and many on this board. You can be upset with how things are going with the team without making stuff up and guaranteeing it to be true. Especially since only two of the current players were there when Kermit coached. If he thought it was their fault why would both of them start? I for one think Green should be coming off the bench. His shot selection is terrible. Also it drives me crazy to see players just drive right past Sims. Is McDevitt supposed to hold his hand and move him in front of the offensive player? This is everyone's fault. No matter how bad the teams are at this school they will always look good when compared to a lot of the fans.
Not even close to reality- no one is blaming CKD and all you're speaking about is Green's offensive numbers.. I'm talking about defense and the problems that are caused by the frontline players getting into foul trouble in each & every game which in turn affects the entire game plan for any coach.. with the new rules the guards should be picking up/absorbing more fouls if they're in position- you can't have the BIGS picking up 84% of the team fouls and not start to dial in on the guard play.. it's not personal it's simply what is observable for anyone.
Why would he start them? Because he couldn't recruit any better guards. He rolled the dice on Farquhar's knee, and it was a bust. Crump, bust. Doesn't even have a natural position. No idea what happened to Darnell Butler, but he's gone. Bust. Tyrik Dixon and TaeTae, booted off the team but never arrested. Eli Lawrence isn't even close to being ready to start.
Only serviceable guard he's signed in the last 2 classes is Jayce Johnson and he can only do so much.
Only serviceable guard he's signed in the last 2 classes is Jayce Johnson and he can only do so much.
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