To me, we turned down a MAC invite because we are flat broke and we need the money we think will be flowing in from C-USA exit fees.
Bottom line
- Thread starter BRaiderDave
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That and GOR. And poor geography fit.
Like Space said we need some significant change still. This give us a chance at least. Will they squander it? Probably but at least we have an opportunity to do “something.”
if the Sun Belt doesn’t eventually work out I would not be surprised if we still end up in the MAC.
Like Space said we need some significant change still. This give us a chance at least. Will they squander it? Probably but at least we have an opportunity to do “something.”
if the Sun Belt doesn’t eventually work out I would not be surprised if we still end up in the MAC.
I believe that it is very important that we allowed them to make it appear that the Mac decided not to extend invitations. That allows them to save face and keeps the door open for a future opportunity
Are we 100% certain we would actually get a big chunk of the exit fees? That's really the only reason to stay and further dilute our declining brand. If we get like $1M, that's not worth it.
They have to buy out Stock and McDisappointment with that money. Remainder has to go into Football and to a lesser extent, basketball.
But it all goes back to - IF we actually get a lot of money from exit fees. Who knows?
They have to buy out Stock and McDisappointment with that money. Remainder has to go into Football and to a lesser extent, basketball.
But it all goes back to - IF we actually get a lot of money from exit fees. Who knows?
I bet we are flat broke. How in the world could they be anything but that?
Honestly. What has been done to increase it?
Old folks die. no new fans. Have the student fees increased?
Honestly. What has been done to increase it?
Old folks die. no new fans. Have the student fees increased?
Well, I'm an optimist, so here goes:
1. There's a lot of "if's", but if we get the windfall, and if we use it to get rid of dead coaches, and if we use it to invest in the revenue programs (facilities, coaches, rebuilding the fan base), and if the timing of future conference re-alignment breaks right, we could find ourselves in the 'Belt or AAC. It could happen. I could also win the powerball and donate all the cash to make this happen as well. I don't know which is more likely, but it's possible.
2. I could be wrong about this, but the MAC TV contract is not up until 2027. I think they wanted to use MT/WKU as a bargaining chip to re-open the deal. But as long as the MAC doesn't jump at, say, UMass and UConn, then there should, in theory, be a couple of spots still in a few years. Maybe we talk again then.
3. I'm going to be honest, my MTSU fandom was a bit re-energized with the MAC talk. It's near flatlined again with the thoughts of all those big Saturday games vs Jacksonville State and New Mexico Whomever. My fall Saturday's remain clear for the foreseeable future - so, anyone up for golfing, jeep-ing, want to go shoot guns?
1. There's a lot of "if's", but if we get the windfall, and if we use it to get rid of dead coaches, and if we use it to invest in the revenue programs (facilities, coaches, rebuilding the fan base), and if the timing of future conference re-alignment breaks right, we could find ourselves in the 'Belt or AAC. It could happen. I could also win the powerball and donate all the cash to make this happen as well. I don't know which is more likely, but it's possible.
2. I could be wrong about this, but the MAC TV contract is not up until 2027. I think they wanted to use MT/WKU as a bargaining chip to re-open the deal. But as long as the MAC doesn't jump at, say, UMass and UConn, then there should, in theory, be a couple of spots still in a few years. Maybe we talk again then.
3. I'm going to be honest, my MTSU fandom was a bit re-energized with the MAC talk. It's near flatlined again with the thoughts of all those big Saturday games vs Jacksonville State and New Mexico Whomever. My fall Saturday's remain clear for the foreseeable future - so, anyone up for golfing, jeep-ing, want to go shoot guns?
Great points. Pretty much how I feel. #1 - If we are broke, I'm afraid Massaro just replinishes our savings account and doesn't actually spend the exit fee money to get new coaches and break ground on facilities. #3 - Exact same for me. It's embarassing for your team to be playing Jacksonville State or some other lame community college. CUSA will clearly be the worst conference in football.
I don’t begrudge MTSU fans. But boy do I despise your leadership. I can’t wait to see the Tops play Jacksonville State and New Mexico Sta
We despise our leadership, too, so join the club
You all should join us in getting 7 wood MacFee and Massaro fired. You all probably will want to keep Stock and the MBB coach around as long as possible and that us understood.
I don't understand the belittling of FCS teams here. Jacksonville State is a very solid football program. Sam Houston is likely to be back-to-back FCS national champions. They are also ranked higher than we are academically. It was less than 10 years ago that App State, Costal Carolina, Liberty, UTSA, etc. were either FCS or were just starting football programs. All of those teams have been ranked in the top 25. You look down on these schools and they very well could be better than us in a short period of time. When is our last top 25 FBS ranking? I cannot believe all those schools went from lame community colleges to top 25 FBS rankings in less than a decade and we can't even win a weak conference in 2 decades. I would say it will be more embarrassing for Jacksonville State and Sam Houston to have to play us than the other way around.
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you mean the fees to make up for the 4K decline in enrollment that Steve Smith was trying to shut down discussion about in the September BOT meeting??? The issue that McPhee was so unhappy and defensive about???
Here's the problem - perception.
The reason we're in this position is the fact that we have failed for many years to sell a compelling entertainment product. I'm sure they're all decent football programs, but at some point, you have to make fans give you their money. All the problems we have (Coaches, facilities, TV deal, money, etc) are symptoms of the lack of interest disease.
These teams we're adding - their not going to boost interest. You're not going to sell JAX State/SHSU/NMSU/Liberty to the casuals that we need to thrive. Imagine trying to get people to leave home and their TV when Georgia is playing Texas to come see MTSU and New Mexico? That battle is lost.
There's only so much of a market for FBS football and those games, and I believe we've reached the point where these FCS no-bodies will do more dragging down than we will lifting up. I know it's not fair to these FCS move-ups, and i'm sure they'll whip up on Stock (who doesn't), but it doesn't change the situation.
Say what you will about the strength of MAC football, they've proven for many years that they can be successful doing things the MAC-way. Doing things the CUSA way has left us with a broken program, no fans, and a disintegrating conference.
I'd also caution anyone thinking that any FCS is the next Appy State. Particularly these. This wasn't a careful vetting of FCS programs to try and see which ones have the most potential - i.e. JMU to the Belt. This was take anyone who returned a phone call so that the CUSA offices could keep the lights on. Already some of the talk about SHSU is how in the world are they going to increase their budget and fix up their rickety stadium.
I've also expounded about how this is a poor fit for us. All this discussion about south vs north and recruiting territory seems to ignore the fact that the only school "southern" in the new CUSA is us and Jax State. But we've been over that again and again.
Jacksonville State's average home attendance in 2019 was 16,829. The MAC's was 15,530 which was the lowest of any FBS conference. James Madison's was 18,108. I don't think home games vs Buffalo, Eastern Michigan, or Northern Illinois are going to draw in any more casual fans than the 4 teams being added. The truth is how you see Jacksonville State and Sam Houston is how the casual fan sees us. That won't change by going to the MAC anymore than it will staying in CUSA.
Also you are wrong about saying this was whoever returned a phone call. Teams are reaching out to CUSA, but that doesn't really matter. I would caution you to think they are not going to be as successful as App State. App State won 3 consecutive FCS championships and moved up shortly after. Sam Houston is in a much more fertile recruiting area and has a very good shot at back-to-back championships.
Speaking of a FCS team with good attendance, Jackson State averaged 33,762 fans in 2019. That attendance plus Coach Prime makes them very attractive to me.
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/Attendance/2019.pdf
Jackson State and Jacksonville State are not the same school.
The stadium at Jax State (in Alabama) holds 24k fans. If that.
The stadium at Jax State (in Alabama) holds 24k fans. If that.
Jackson State and Jacksonville State are not the same school.
The stadium at Jax State (in Alabama) holds 24k fans. If that.
Yea, the SWAC has pretty good attendance overall. The SWAC averages just under what the MAC averages in attendance.
I don't think anyone was saying they are. Pretty sure he was talking about Jackson State having that many for homecoming, not Jacksonville State. Also Jacksonville State's does hold 24,000 exactly.
Jackson State may be getting a new stadium also.
https://www.wlbt.com/2021/10/28/aft...-could-jackson-state-finally-get-new-stadium/
https://www.wlbt.com/2021/10/28/aft...-could-jackson-state-finally-get-new-stadium/
You're not going to sell Eastern Michigan, Kent State, or Ball St either.
Here’s where that number comes from. Judy in her invite wisdom is apparently putting the exit number at $1.5M per school per year. Even if said school (e.g. Marshall) has annual average higher than that. I mean Marshall usually rakes double or nearly double that. So do we (well except last year).
So, $3M in forfeited revenues per school times nine schools gets you to $27M split among the five remaining. That’s a little over $5M and probably what Whit was getting at. Annual distributions are usually close to $40M or slightly above in some years. So, if distributions are at $40M, we should see an an additional $2 to $3M each of those two years. So, that definitely brings the number down lower than I thought.
So, that’s another way to get close to the $5M number. $2.5M per year for two years for each of the five schools plus our annual $2-$3M.
This is the part I’m unsure of and someone really needs to explain this to us. If C-USA has $40M to distribute among five schools is she distributing the difference (sans the $3M) to the nine schools leaving? If she does that she will just solidify her place as the worst commissioner ever. She also may not be requiring those departing to pay their membership dues. The league would lose about $6.4M in membership dues from the nine leaving.
Here’s where that number comes from. Judy in her invite wisdom is apparently putting the exit number at $1.5M per school per year. Even if said school (e.g. Marshall) has annual average higher than that. I mean Marshall usually rakes double or nearly double that. So do we (well except last year).
So, $3M in forfeited revenues per school times nine schools gets you to $27M split among the five remaining. That’s a little over $5M and probably what Whit was getting at. Annual distributions are usually close to $40M or slightly above in some years. So, if distributions are at $40M, we should see an an additional $2 to $3M each of those two years. So, that definitely brings the number down lower than I thought.
So, that’s another way to get close to the $5M number. $2.5M per year for two years for each of the five schools plus our annual $2-$3M.
This is the part I’m unsure of and someone really needs to explain this to us. If C-USA has $40M to distribute among five schools is she distributing the difference (sans the $3M) to the nine schools leaving? If she does that she will just solidify her place as the worst commissioner ever. She also may not be requiring those departing to pay their membership dues. The league would lose about $6.4M in membership dues from the nine leaving.
None of the people going to Jax State games help us sell our program in our market to our fans. You can point out all the factually correct statistics on how many fans they have, or how good their teams might be - you're not getting anyone to buy a ticket to this game on a Saturday afternoon in SEC country. If you can even find it on facebook or whereever, you're not getting anyone to switch over to this game.
All of SHSU's fertile recruiting grounds doesn't help us. We don't recruit there. We don't draw students from there. There's no large # of SHSU fans living in the middle state area. No one is going to travel to watch our team play in Huntsville, TX. Suppose they do turn into a fantastic G5 program - what does that do for us - we get our brains beat in by a team from Texas in front of no fans on "stadium" TV network.
Look at Liberty, they're a fake university who prints money from their "online" school. How do we fit in with them? If they are successful, it'll be at our expense. If they are not, then we still have very little reward to reap considering half the people in the country think about Liberty and go "ewww".
If you're right, then we're set up to fail. If you're wrong, then these programs are dead on arrival and we're still not better off.
There is no long term upside or chance at success in CUSA.
Say what you will about the MAC - we were set up to be very successful quickly there - we have the best recruiting territory, one of the best budgets, highest paid staff, facilities were not a hinderance in the MAC.
The MAC offered the chance to be a conference's 800lb gorilla - a fresh start and possibly winning big on ESPN in a conference that doesn't have the perception of a laughingstock - we had a chance to re-energize the program.
But it's all moot I guess if we didn't have the bucks to even pay the entrance fee.
Same thing you say about fans applies to Eastern Michigan, Ball State, Kent State. Etc. No one in the MAC moves the needle in fan support for us. Absolutely zero rivalries there and no history.
And as I explained recruiting would suffer because we don't have the budget to extend our recruiting north where we play and also maintain what we do to our south.
And as I explained recruiting would suffer because we don't have the budget to extend our recruiting north where we play and also maintain what we do to our south.
We don't have to recruit up north.
All we had to do is out-recruit schools in Indiana, Michigan, Illinois. We have more good players in a 4 hour radius of Murfreesboro than they do in their entire states.
They have crappier facilities, lower recruiting budgets - It would be super-easy to out-recruit those schools.
Now, we pretty much have no games in our territory anymore anyway (1 team in Alabama, none in Georgia, and the one in Florida is 900 miles from our campus), and have to recruit against teams in Florida, Texas, etc.
We will have to recruit there. 1000% you have to recruit where you play. Once we go if we did, no longer would we be able to tell recruits than we're going to play x number of games within certain miles of your mama. We would also lose a lot of pocket litter type media coverage in the south. No visibility in the areas you recruit and it's nearly impossible unless you're a national brand - which we are not. And as was also pointed out previously the negative recruiting against us would be fo real.
While mostly also true in this new form of C-USA the difference is we don't have to commit to it for two freaking decades. It's a big difference. I mean it's a mammoth difference. That's same amount of time we've been I-A/FBS. It's a long freakin time
The arguments you make against staying in CUSA can be used for the MAC as well. Go look at the average MAC schedule and tell me how many of their games are televised on ESPN networks. ESPN+ and ESPN3 are not televised, so they do not count. We also have a a good portion of our games on ESPN+/3. I know you hate Liberty, but to call them a fake university is obviously showing your bias. They are just as accredited as MTSU and many of their degrees are just as good, if not better. They even have an ABA approved law school. You can want to move to the MAC without calling other universities junior colleges and "fake" universities. Just shows unwarranted arrogance for someone who roots for Middle Tennessee State University.
The way I view it - your recruiting matters only relative to your peers in the conference.
If you want to recruit within a radius of where Mama can come and watch (say, 4 hours drive), we're still going to have a much better territory than the schools we would compete with.
It's just #'s at that point - we have more players in our drivable radius than a school located in Muncie, IN or Kalamazoo MI or Rockford IL. We would have, on the whole, fielded more talented teams more often than we would be facing.
And, if you want to really look into changing recruiting territory - then it was going to change anyway. In old CUSA, you could go into Birmingham or Atlanta and sell a kid on home games at M'Boro, and easy drivable road trips to UAB, WKU, Southern Miss, or Charlotte. Most of those teams are gone. A kid in Atlanta - the only school in new CUSA anywhere near is J-ville State. The recruiting territory must change anyway.
Yeah, the GoR if true as reported was a non-starter.
Just on week 11 - looks like 6 MAC games featuring 12 teams were nationally televised in time slots with little to no competition.
We played our biggest game and perhaps the conferences biggest rivalry on something called "Stadium".
Liberty is an online diploma mill. They are a hellfire and brimstone version of the Univ of Phoenix.
It's tactical and purposeful silence at this point. All internal discussions/debate, crunching numbers, and probably some discussions with WKU. We are not going to hear anything until they make a decision.
Not sure what you're looking at, but I see a large campus with a beautiful stadium on campus, baseball stadium on campus, and their basketball arena is nice but I can't tell if it's on campus. Their campus looks beautiful actually and there appears to be plenty of in-the-class-room buildings around. Basically everyone augments their brick & mortar stuff with online programs. You'd be a fool not to. Are we going to hate on Liberty because they've done a great job at expanding their online programs?
Our board is just now talking about how MT was ranked #40 in the nation for online adult learning programs. We were the only TN school on the list. They are talking about how big the online programs are for the future.
Why are we knocking Liberty for this?
Why are we knocking Liberty for this?
Time slots with little to no competition means on Tuesday night when a majority of people are not watching. If a ton of people watched their TV contract would be a lot better than it is.
Translation: I do not like Liberty or their beliefs, so I am going to discredit everything about them. This includes trashing everyone's education that has ever attended there because I don't like them and they provide education in a way that education snobs like me don't like.
For the record I do not have a degree from Liberty. I just know that a person can get a good education there and many other places that people like you look down on. Liberty and Phoenix are very different.
They're not watching 330pm on Stadium either
If you really think the best path forward for the program is to play our games on Saturday afternoons streamed on little known services that no one gets or subs to, while going up against the SEC's prime matchup, I won't argue with you further about that.
I also don't know what else to say about Liberty. Between their toxic values and the fact that they built a "university" by collecting checks and mailing out VHS tapes, I don't think we should be too enthused to be in a conference with them. There was a reason no one would even take their bribe to get into a conference before now.
I'm not against online learning. I'm currently working on a second degree from Univ of Memphis online (all my MTSU credits transferred). I just think that an established esteemed university offering online courses is a little different than a church who built a "university" on mail order degrees.
At this point they are an established and fully accredited university. You clearly have issues with their beliefs and that is the main driver for you not liking them. If I didn't want to be in a conference with colleges that teach what are toxic views in my opinion, there are not many (if any) colleges I would want to be in a conference with. I don't care how they got started or what their founder believed. I do care what they are now in this sense as an athletic department. I also think they provide a wonderful education to many students. Prove otherwise. Most issues with Liberty are not necessarily academic related.
i know that, i was responding to his post about Jackson St. and Coach Prime. Read
I'm not sure we had 400k streaming our 100 Miles of Hate.
Anecdotal I know - but I consider myself a casual college football fan, and I find myself watching a lot more MAC football than I intend to. Almost by accident.
I went out to a sandwich shop for dinner last Wed, and there was a MAC game on. I know several times I've been flipping around the channels on a random weekday and settled on a MAC game because it was that or some boring realty show.
I can say that it takes effort to find our CUSA games, and I usually have to set up a cast to my TV or watch on a tablet and there is no option to watch out of the home. If the stream is stable enough, then it works. But then you also have to put up with the low-end production values. There's some ESPN3 here and there I guess.
Also, I think it's a bad mistake to try and take on the SEC on Saturdays. I do not think we can build a program by offering a slate of SHSU and Liberty while competing directly against Tennessee vs Alabama or UGA vs Texas.
It would be a good idea for the new CUSA to try and copy the MAC-tion niche.
