Sommy said:

Even UTEP and potentially Tarleton State want nothing to do with CUSA. It’s a complete embarrassment of a conference. If you can’t find Tarleton St. on a map, how about Kennesaw or Jax State? Pathetic and if we stay in CUSA it will likely end my interest in this program.

We need to be pleading with other conferences to take us. If we are stuck in CUSA it will be our death sentence as a program ! I truly believe that. The gap between us and even G5 will be too much to ever overcome in terms of $$$; reputation, fan interest, ability to attract players AND coaches, media interest. We will NEVER have a chance to right this thing.

CUSA is the Titanic ! Iceberg ahead Plead and beg with anyone to take us or it’s over. We don’t have much to offer except “potential” of a good market, but MT needs to sell its soul at this stage or we are toast.

My preference:
1-AAC
2-SBC
3-MWC
4-MAC

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I know it can be hard to see and accept, but we are right where we belong at this time. Our administration and community has basically ignored our football program for the last 15 years. You simply can't do that and expect your peers to take you seriously.

Maybe after we get all our facilities built, win some championships, and get some support from the local community then we can expect other conferences to take us seriously.

Why would you want to be in a league with Rice, Tulsa, and Tulane (if they don't leave), as well as Temple, UTSA, Army, and Navy?

We have virtually nothing in common with a vast majority of that league. We belong in the SBC.

AustinLewis said:

In most cases, you need 3 years to see what a HC (just like @MidTennMtneer said).

Most G5s aren't getting 4-5 star guys. Most of HS singing class is 2-3 start, developmental guys. IOW, MT fans probably won't see the fruits of the 2024 class until 2025 & the fruits of the 2025 class until 2026. Additionally, it usually takes a year to put together a signing class. So the 1st signing class for any coach is usually the hardest to get a read on.

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I think next year they want to compete with the core veterans left over while adding in some portal talent at spots of need and then start stacking their guys they've brought in personally starting in that year 3. Have some pretty good freshmen and commits. Roman Gagliano has the chance to be one of the best G5 QBs without a doubt imo

MidTennMtneer said:

I've always said a G5 coach needs at least 2-3yrs. Good foundation or not. It used to be 4-5, but now with the portal that long isn't needed.

Year 1 try to get that you "think" you need. Use that season to learn.
Year 2, get what you "know" you need based on gameplay. Go bowling.
Year 3, plug the small holes and go win a championship.

Click to expand...

I think you're on the right track in terms of staff mindset. Except I think they want to be a lot more competitive next year with this massive core of guys with one year left (Vattiato, entire WR core, Pierce potentially, Gillespie, Curtis, Myers, Raby, Howse IV, etc)

Even UTEP and potentially Tarleton State want nothing to do with CUSA. It’s a complete embarrassment of a conference. If you can’t find Tarleton St. on a map, how about Kennesaw or Jax State? Pathetic and if we stay in CUSA it will likely end my interest in this program.

We need to be pleading with other conferences to take us. If we are stuck in CUSA it will be our death sentence as a program ! I truly believe that. The gap between us and even G5 will be too much to ever overcome in terms of $$$; reputation, fan interest, ability to attract players AND coaches, media interest. We will NEVER have a chance to right this thing.

CUSA is the Titanic ! Iceberg ahead Plead and beg with anyone to take us or it’s over. We don’t have much to offer except “potential” of a good market, but MT needs to sell its soul at this stage or we are toast.

My preference:
1-AAC
2-SBC
3-MWC
4-MAC

MTFAN61 said:

My analogy for MT Athletics trying to change conferences is like the Nashville Sounds jumping from AA to AAA in baseball.
I look at the G5 & FCS as the equivalent of A, AA. & AAA baseball. With the P4 making up the Pro's.
AAA could be seen as the PAC, AAC, & Sunbelt. AA the rest of G5 including MT, & the FCS making up A.
For years the Sounds wanted to make the jump from AA to AAA because it felt like a step closer to the Pro's. When they finally made the jump it felt like a big deal to Nashville & Middle Tennessee. But that quickly wore off because to the world the Sounds were still playing minor league ball.
No matter what scrambling any G5 or FCS schools do it doesn't really matter. To the world we're still minor league. No matter how much money Texas St, JMU, Liberty or the rest of G5 spend knocking on the door the P4 aren't letting them in to their house. Now thanks to the NCAA we are just like the Sounds & the rest of minor league baseball, a glorified farm league.
Recommendation to FCS (Single A) schools, stay where you're at. It's more financially feasible. Jumping to the equivalent of AA or AAA ball in football no longer really matters. To the world you're still in the minor leagues. And while the Pro's will be glad to take some of your eggs, they're never going to let us in the hen house to roost with them.

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Yes, which is why the MAC was not a good choice for us. Financially, we are better off for that decision.

However, this is not universal. Memphis and USF are probably going to be the last schools that get that opportunity. We probably never had any chance no matter what we did but this University has squandered just about every athletic and academic opportunity its had to be better than it was two decades ago. Not only are we not better than we were 25 years ago, we are worse in just about every facet.

Back to the point about conferences, the place I disagree with you on about this is that it does matter where you are and who you're with even if you're still minor league. Let's use your Sounds analogy as an example. Remember when they were in the Pacific Coast League. Even though they had Memphis in its division it's other two division teams were in Nebraska and Iowa. And then the rest of their schedule included 12 or 13 clubs west of the Missippi most in the Mountain or Pacific Time zones. Today all of their opponents are in the Eastern or Central Time Zones. Big difference.

The point is where we are right now is about the worst its been for us since the early days of the Sun Belt. Today the Sun Belt has strong leadership, is more regionally confined, and has schools that share common objectives. That's where we belong. The AAC is not the place we need to be. We need to focus all of our energy getting back to the Sun Belt, getting back to some of our regional rivalries and getting back to being the best we can be there. C-USA has been a disaster for us. Now that UTEP is gone there isn't a single member from 1.0 and now it's far flung, discombobulated tribe of of institutions that aren't really focused on the same things. This league is a mess now. Just once I would like to see us find ourselves in a league with a good commissioner. From the OVC to Sun Belt 1.0 to C-USA, we've never had a good league leadership.

My analogy for MT Athletics trying to change conferences is like the Nashville Sounds jumping from AA to AAA in baseball.
I look at the G5 & FCS as the equivalent of A, AA. & AAA baseball. With the P4 making up the Pro's.
AAA could be seen as the PAC, AAC, & Sunbelt. AA the rest of G5 including MT, & the FCS making up A.
For years the Sounds wanted to make the jump from AA to AAA because it felt like a step closer to the Pro's. When they finally made the jump it felt like a big deal to Nashville & Middle Tennessee. But that quickly wore off because to the world the Sounds were still playing minor league ball.
No matter what scrambling any G5 or FCS schools do it doesn't really matter. To the world we're still minor league. No matter how much money Texas St, JMU, Liberty or the rest of G5 spend knocking on the door the P4 aren't letting them in to their house. Now thanks to the NCAA we are just like the Sounds & the rest of minor league baseball, a glorified farm league.
Recommendation to FCS (Single A) schools, stay where you're at. It's more financially feasible. Jumping to the equivalent of AA or AAA ball in football no longer really matters. To the world you're still in the minor leagues. And while the Pro's will be glad to take some of your eggs, they're never going to let us in the hen house to roost with them.

mtfblue said:

my point is UTEP makes sense, but as things start to happen. Moving to the AAC, SBC or MAC is futile for MT. The TV money for G's will level off and most will be what in what. If the school president's would get out the way, you could get South, Mid south, Midwest, Eastern, SW and West G conference. MT has to clean-up 15 years of stagnant growth. MTis better of in CUSA as it should grow into a rising program that can win the conference and play for n the last spot. Massaro needs to learn how to schedule, FCS and 3 regional G5 games, for get playing the power schools and learn to build a fan base. You would and could make more from those games than getting beat up by Power teams.

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I agree. It may hurt on the front end, but if MT can buid a winning program, then the other eth fans will probably come.

It would start out like the Predators, if you remember when they started. Most sellouts were due to other fans coming in for a visit. All those kids that were there with their parents are now adults with season tickets and bringing their families. Attendance is dramatically different than the first 10-12 years. Not saying it would take that long, but it could work.

RaiderDoug said:

I think this is entirely reasonable. Especially in the portal era. Some G5's might be a little luckier than others with returning players - but now, as soon as you have a coaching change, your roster is going to be raided for any decent player you might have. That sucks, but it is what it is.

The portal isn't all bad, it's another way for your new coach to bring in more talent quicker. But it's one of those things where it might make the first year harder as you're going to lose more talent than you would have before, but the 2nd year a little easier as you can bring more in than just a 25 man recruiting class. Unfortunately, we're just in between those phases.

We don't have to like what we've seen so far, but we should understand it.

Click to expand...

In most cases, you need 3 years to see what a HC (just like @MidTennMtneer said).

Most G5s aren't getting 4-5 star guys. Most of HS singing class is 2-3 start, developmental guys. IOW, MT fans probably won't see the fruits of the 2024 class until 2025 & the fruits of the 2025 class until 2026. Additionally, it usually takes a year to put together a signing class. So the 1st signing class for any coach is usually the hardest to get a read on.

subkyle said:

I think the other sports matter a little more at our level. I agree it’s closer to zero in the SEC Big10, but I think a strong overall athletic program has a bit of weight in the non power conferences

Click to expand...

If it did, MT wouldn't be in C-USA. The fact that we're here is the evidentiary proof Olympic sports are irrelevant in this equation. If anything it's the opposite of what you said. The AD at Memphis has said they've been told they need to improve their Olympic sports if they want interest from the ACC or Big 12. Regardless, it's such a small percentage of the equation it's almost irrelevant for everyone.

MidTennMtneer said:

I've always said a G5 coach needs at least 2-3yrs. Good foundation or not. It used to be 4-5, but now with the portal that long isn't needed.

Year 1 try to get that you "think" you need. Use that season to learn.
Year 2, get what you "know" you need based on gameplay. Go bowling.
Year 3, plug the small holes and go win a championship.

Click to expand...

I think this is entirely reasonable. Especially in the portal era. Some G5's might be a little luckier than others with returning players - but now, as soon as you have a coaching change, your roster is going to be raided for any decent player you might have. That sucks, but it is what it is.

The portal isn't all bad, it's another way for your new coach to bring in more talent quicker. But it's one of those things where it might make the first year harder as you're going to lose more talent than you would have before, but the 2nd year a little easier as you can bring more in than just a 25 man recruiting class. Unfortunately, we're just in between those phases.

We don't have to like what we've seen so far, but we should understand it.

MT01 said:

I don't even believe the everything else is 5%. Closer to zero than five.

Click to expand...

I think the other sports matter a little more at our level. I agree it’s closer to zero in the SEC Big10, but I think a strong overall athletic program has a bit of weight in the non power conferences

sWiley said:

Yup.

And it's even worse now.

And Mason could have just kept his mouth shut. Nobody told him he had to explicitly state that the situation was a rebuild or not a rebuild. He volunteered that information and I think he believed it, doubling down on the whole good bones thing and what not.

Click to expand...

But Mason (and other coaches) are in a no-win situation when asked about the program.

If they say "no, roster is terrible" is really bad PR & can be deflating for a team

If they say "roster is incredible" it begs the question : "why did they fire the previous HC?"

He's not wrong...the bones are there. But the injuries have exposed the lack of depth. Would have exposed the lack of depth for Stock (if it happened to him too).

MidTennMtneer said:

G5s (G6) should all be regional. We can't afford all this cross country nonsense. That's what makes having the PAC and MWC at the same level so stupid. It made sense when the PAC was a Power/Autonomy conference. They aren't now.
Football half makes sense but trucking olympic sports all over the place is ridiculous. Even baseball. When that B1G/SEC split happens, regional rivalries will have to be one of the things to keep G5s afloat.

Egos should be put aside and they just merge. Yes it would mean losing MWC NCAA credits but still, they'd come out ahead in the long run.

It's the same stupidity as Delaware being in a conference with 2000 mile away NMSU or Temple with 1700 mile away UTSA.

It's why UTEP to the MWC is a move that actually makes sense for a change. It's only going to cost them about $3m to leave. The MWC is shooting for $3m/yr (they are at $7m now). We are at $850k.

Click to expand...

my point is UTEP makes sense, but as things start to happen. Moving to the AAC, SBC or MAC is futile for MT. The TV money for G's will level off and most will be what in what. If the school president's would get out the way, you could get South, Mid south, Midwest, Eastern, SW and West G conference. MT has to clean-up 15 years of stagnant growth. MTis better of in CUSA as it should grow into a rising program that can win the conference and play for n the last spot. Massaro needs to learn how to schedule, FCS and 3 regional G5 games, for get playing the power schools and learn to build a fan base. You would and could make more from those games than getting beat up by Power teams.

mtfblue said:

Really with what the SEC/BiG wants to do, why is changing conferences and paying entrance and exit fees worth it at the G5 level. The PAC will still be G5, MWC G5 along with the others. If you want to play GSU's, Troy or any sunbelt team schedule them. This thread is exhausting.

Click to expand...

G5s (G6) should all be regional. We can't afford all this cross country nonsense. That's what makes having the PAC and MWC at the same level so stupid. It made sense when the PAC was a Power/Autonomy conference. They aren't now.
Football half makes sense but trucking olympic sports all over the place is ridiculous. Even baseball. When that B1G/SEC split happens, regional rivalries will have to be one of the things to keep G5s afloat.

Egos should be put aside and they just merge. Yes it would mean losing MWC NCAA credits but still, they'd come out ahead in the long run.

It's the same stupidity as Delaware being in a conference with 2000 mile away NMSU or Temple with 1700 mile away UTSA.

It's why UTEP to the MWC is a move that actually makes sense for a change. It's only going to cost them about $3m to leave. The MWC is shooting for $3m/yr (they are at $7m now). We are at $850k.

Shayne_Pickering said:

Cignetti also had an 11-1 James Madison team to pull talent from along with B10 resources to get even more portal talent. Then Indiana has an extremely workable schedule. Not the same situation, but Cignetti was arguably the top up-and-coming coach

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If grabbing 13 guys from a top G5 team was the secret sauce to success, every medocre P4 team would do it.

It is far easier to recruit athletes to UCLA than Indiana, yet Indiana beat them 42-13 in Los Angeles.

UCLA is 1-3 because of coaching.
Indiana is 5-0 because of coaching.

Really with what the SEC/BiG wants to do, why is changing conferences and paying entrance and exit fees worth it at the G5 level. The PAC will still be G5, MWC G5 along with the others. If you want to play GSU's, Troy or any sunbelt team schedule them. This thread is exhausting.

RaiderDoug said:

As for your issues with the G5/P4, who knows. I do think that the upper crust of P4 will eventually split off into NFL lite and the rest of us will end up in some new format. Will that keep our interest? Only time will tell.

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They will still be stealing all our good players regardless if they split or not. I'm waiting for them to pass a rule that allows transfers mid-season so when they need an emergency good player they can steal one from a farm team.

How people still find this enjoyable is beyond me

sWiley said:

Yup.

And it's even worse now.

And Mason could have just kept his mouth shut. Nobody told him he had to explicitly state that the situation was a rebuild or not a rebuild. He volunteered that information and I think he believed it, doubling down on the whole good bones thing and what not.

I want him to prove me wrong. I truly do. The more wrong I am the better. Please, make me look like a moron coach Mason..... But with that being said, he really strikes me as a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of guy. And honestly that sometimes can work if you're more of a salesmen/motivator. There are many successful college head coaches that are not X&O's savants and more the salesmen type...but you better bring in good coordinators/assistants that are sharp...and unfortunately I don't think he's done that either. Both coordinators have left a lot to be desired thus far, especially on the defensive side of things. I much preferred Shafer's schemes and philosophies. Not only was it a more exciting defense to watch, it was just better from a results perspective too.

I foresee/predict some very bad times for MT football. It's going to go about like the whole McDevitt thing went. Pretty damn bad. At least Mason doesn't have major expectations to follow up on like McDevitt had, but it's still going to be bad. And I believe the bad results will be a combination of poor coaching and landscape changes. Schools like ours are just going to be a revolving door where we lose all of our good and even decent talent year after year. I just don't see how we can do anything worthwhile when we are pillaged every off season. What's even the point ?

The days of G5's being close to the P4 is over. We used to say most starters can play with most starters....that the power programs have the depth which helps them pull away usually in the second half. And for the most part, that used to be the case unless we are talking the blue bloods who would just smoke you from the start.

Those days are over. G5's (Well, the poor ones like us) are simply not gonna be even in the same realm as your average P4 team. The days of beating Maryland, Georgia Tech, Missouri, Miami, etc. are over. We will be cannon fodder for the P4/TopG5 and hope for a 6-6 finish by piling up wins against some of the worst teams in the country (our conference of course) in November every year. How exciting.

Maybe Rick Stockstill wasn't so bad afterall.

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You might be right about Mason. To be honest, you can predict every coach will fail and be right more often than not. But, maybe not.

Either way, if you're going to give the man an honest good faith chance, you have to give the man more than 5 games against one of the toughest schedules in the sport.

As for your issues with the G5/P4, who knows. I do think that the upper crust of P4 will eventually split off into NFL lite and the rest of us will end up in some new format. Will that keep our interest? Only time will tell.

RaiderDoug said:

They were his words, I read them as rah-rah PR.

But this is also the same program you yourself have been railing against for years as mismanaged and rotten - your words, not Mason’s.

Click to expand...

Yup.

And it's even worse now.

And Mason could have just kept his mouth shut. Nobody told him he had to explicitly state that the situation was a rebuild or not a rebuild. He volunteered that information and I think he believed it, doubling down on the whole good bones thing and what not.

I want him to prove me wrong. I truly do. The more wrong I am the better. Please, make me look like a moron coach Mason..... But with that being said, he really strikes me as a fake-it-till-you-make-it kind of guy. And honestly that sometimes can work if you're more of a salesmen/motivator. There are many successful college head coaches that are not X&O's savants and more the salesmen type...but you better bring in good coordinators/assistants that are sharp...and unfortunately I don't think he's done that either. Both coordinators have left a lot to be desired thus far, especially on the defensive side of things. I much preferred Shafer's schemes and philosophies. Not only was it a more exciting defense to watch, it was just better from a results perspective too. We never get any pressure or hits/sacks on the QB. Shafer would send all 11 guys on a blitz if he had to in order to hit the QB and send a message. It's about sending a message as much as it is getting that TFL.

I foresee/predict some very bad times for MT football. It's going to go about like the whole McDevitt thing went. Pretty damn bad. At least Mason doesn't have major expectations to follow up on like McDevitt had, but it's still going to be bad. And I believe the bad results will be a combination of poor coaching and landscape changes. Schools like ours are just going to be a revolving door where we lose all of our good and even decent talent year after year. I just don't see how we can do anything worthwhile when we are pillaged every off season. What's even the point ?

The days of G5's being close to the P4 is over. We used to say most starters can play with most starters....that the power programs have the depth which helps them pull away usually in the second half. And for the most part, that used to be the case unless we are talking the blue bloods who would just smoke you from the start.

Those days are over. G5's (Well, the poor ones like us) are simply not gonna be even in the same realm as your average P4 team. The days of beating Maryland, Georgia Tech, Missouri, Miami, etc. are over. We will be cannon fodder for the P4/TopG5 and hope for a 6-6 finish by piling up wins against some of the worst teams in the country (our conference of course) in November every year. How exciting.

Maybe Rick Stockstill wasn't so bad afterall.

sWiley said:

You keep saying this but Mason himself said MTSU was not a rebuild job. This is on record. His words. Not mine. He took it a step further and said this program has good bones.....


????

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They were his words, I read them as rah-rah PR.

But this is also the same program you yourself have been railing against for years as mismanaged and rotten - your words, not Mason’s.

FWIW

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Shayne_Pickering said:

Expect this staff to be active in certain spots of need in the portal

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I've always said a G5 coach needs at least 2-3yrs. Good foundation or not. It used to be 4-5, but now with the portal that long isn't needed.

Year 1 try to get that you "think" you need. Use that season to learn.
Year 2, get what you "know" you need based on gameplay. Go bowling.
Year 3, plug the small holes and go win a championship.

Cignetti also had an 11-1 James Madison team to pull talent from along with B10 resources to get even more portal talent. Then Indiana has an extremely workable schedule. Not the same situation, but Cignetti was arguably the top up-and-coming coach

AustinLewis said:

As I've said elsewhere, it's not that MT lost; it's HOW MT lost. Sure, the 2024 schedule didn't help Mason & the MT FB team

So many of the issues MT has dealt with are self-inflicted. Fumbles (especially fumbles inside the 20). Dumb penalties. Execution. Secondary issues. Some of those can / should be fixed.

But some those issues are young guys being thrust into the lineup before they are ready. There's a reason starters are starters and backups are backups. And MT fans are seeing it play out in front of them.

But this year (IMO) was always about trying to get the ship turned around and heading in the right direction. Recruiting (so far) is solid. If Mason can land a couple of transfers, they'll be in a good spot.

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Expect this staff to be active in certain spots of need in the portal