Vegas Win Total is 5.5 games

[JohnDavidBlue]

I’m pretty sure CUSA overall RPI was pretty low over the past 10 years….maybe placing us even worse than a top FCS conference. Everything fell into place for Rick to just do enough (or not enough) to wreck this place.

Again, if he doesn’t step down if things go south, he has no allegiance to this school. Just to his overpaid contract.

 

[Brew_Raider]

I tried to do a FOIA request but it was more in depth than I wanted to deal with.

If anyone that lives in Tennessee will complete the request here, I will put the $4.05 if they don’t waive the fee.

Really, the request is to see if they updated the one signed in 2016 that is available online and posted above.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

If anyone that lives in Tennessee will complete the request here, I will put the $4.05 if they don’t waive the fee.

Really, the request is to see if they updated the one signed in 2016 that is available online and posted above.

Good luck! 😂😂

 

[ewglenn]

If anyone wants to pickup where I left off.

“The status of your FOIA request #22-01302-F has been updated to the following status 'In Process'. To log into the DoEd FOIA Portal click on the Application URL below.”

 

[MT01]

This contract has always been miscommunicated on this board as the threshold was raised when he renegotiated his deal with the first extension to 7 overall or six conference wins. Still not good but better than the original. The second iteration also capped the auto extensions after five years. That too has been met so no longer any auto extensions. His second extensions - where he deferred his $100K increase for three years for three additional years - was a joke. He was extended through the ‘25 season at that time (which is paid through early 2026). He makes roughly $1.1M annually after the auto pay raises, so he has four years left including this year. At the end of ‘22 his buyout would be $3.3M.

Could the U secretly renegotiated another extension without anyone knowing? Possibly because we have no beat writer, But I think it would have triggered something in state legislature so unlikely.

So, all that said he’s due over $4M at this moment to complete his contract.

The question is going to be what if he lucks into - let’s say an 8-win season - and now only had three years left. In that scenario would you be willing to extend him for two additional years at $1M if a buyout clause was reduced to say $500K? If he floundered in ‘23 then you could buyout then and save $1.6M. I would be willing to accept that. But I think reality is he’s more likely to lose eight than win eight this year. And if that occurs we still owe him more than $3M.

 

[MidTennMtneer]

If he does only have 3 more years after this year, AND he wins 8 or more games, I have no problem with 1 year added for recruiting. But, as you said, ONLY if it is in exchange for a reduced buyout. No way in h=!! I'd let him have a single day more without it.

 

[AustinLewis]

Something else to ponder regarding inbred coaching staffs. Not a single current Hilltopper assistant played college football in Bowling Green, KY.

WKU QC Asst Garrett Schwettman played at WKU.

FWIW, Helton has only been at WKU for a few years. Stockstill has been at MT 15+ years so that‘s one reason Stockstill‘s staff has more former players.

Several years ago, I recall some arguing that MT needed more “MT guys” on staff. Now they have that & the issue is “inbreeding.”

Look, I get it, after 15+ years hovering in the no-mans land of mediocrity, it’s probably time for Stock to move on. My thoughts on this aren’t a secret to anyone. But now we’ve moved into “it’s time for Stock to move on” to complaining about everything…

 

[MidTennMtneer]

WKU QC Asst Garrett Schwettman played at WKU.

FWIW, Helton has only been at WKU for a few years. Stockstill has been at MT 15+ years so that‘s one reason Stockstill‘s staff has more former players.

Several years ago, I recall some arguing that MT needed more “MT guys” on staff. Now they have that & the issue is “inbreeding.”

Look, I get it, after 15+ years hovering in the no-mans land of mediocrity, it’s probably time for Stock to move on. My thoughts on this aren’t a secret to anyone. But now we’ve moved into “it’s time for Stock to move on” to complaining about everything…

I'm past that point. I haven't settled, but accepted I guess for lack of a better term.

I'm not shy either in my thoughts for Stock moving on, mistakes made by CM and McPhee, bad contracts, facilities, conferences, etc.

At the same time, I know Stock isn't going anywhere. Even if everyone in the admin wanted him gone, unless he chose to go or took a reduced buyout, he isn't getting fired. Period. So I take the approach to hope for the best, scream like crazy on GameDays, and support the players and dept however I can. Be it BuildBlue, the court design (which yeah, that is on the pisses me off list), or even serving on the Fan Committee if I were attending more than one event this year.

I'm at the point I'd rather continue to show my support but NOT keep my mouth shut. Me keeping my little few hundred a year donated to myself won't change anything regarding Stock, but it may help a student out a little bit.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

WKU QC Asst Garrett Schwettman played at WKU.

FWIW, Helton has only been at WKU for a few years. Stockstill has been at MT 15+ years so that‘s one reason Stockstill‘s staff has more former players.

Several years ago, I recall some arguing that MT needed more “MT guys” on staff. Now they have that & the issue is “inbreeding.”

Look, I get it, after 15+ years hovering in the no-mans land of mediocrity, it’s probably time for Stock to move on. My thoughts on this aren’t a secret to anyone. But now we’ve moved into “it’s time for Stock to move on” to complaining about everything…

Schwettman is a QC analyst. C’mon man.
Stock has three (3) full-time position coaches on staff who played for him, not counting the analysts and GA’s as well.
Show me any currently successful P-5 or G-5 school with the same.
You get my point. Let’s keep it apples to apples.

And for the record, if Stock pulls a 10-win season with this staff this year, I’ll gladly re-up in the BRAA. He hasn’t done it again in 12 seasons.

 

[AustinLewis]

Schwettman is a QC analyst. C’mon man.
Stock has three (3) full-time position coaches on staff who played for him, not counting the analysts and GA’s as well.
Show me any P-5 or G-5 school with the same.
You get my point. Let’s keep it apples to apples.

C'mon man. You didn't specify position coach or coordinator. And I didn't include Lankford who was a GA or QC on Brohm's staff (can't remember which).

Wait, we're keeping the comparison apples to apples. Alright. How 'bout these apples :

1) The average "lifespan" of a FBS HC at one institution seems to be 3.8 years. Or how about this study? That's hardly enough time to have multiple former players as assts at the same institution.

2) For better or worse, Stockstill is the 4th longest tenured HC in FBS football at this time. So relatively few coaches have the longevity to have multiple former players on the staff. Stockstill happens to have the longetivity to have former players on staff.

3) Iowa has 5 position coaches or coordinators on staff that are former players.

4) Across the board, coaches usually hire who they know & trust. As an example, Jeff Brohm's on-field staff at Purdue includes his brother, at least two assistants from previous stops, & a former WKU GA. And that doesn't count Jeff's other brother who is Director of Football Ops & a strength coach from his stop at WKU.

5) On top of all of this, the rising salaries of FBS asst coaches has made hiring assts even more challenge. Many (if not most) P5 on-field asst make what MT pays their coordinators. And, if that's not enough, for many "top" programs, their lowest-paid on-field assts make what MT's coordinators make with some position coaches & coordinators inching close to Stock's salary as HC.

The $$$ limits who you can hire : either jobless / recently fired coaches or young & hungry guys at the FCS level (or lower). In Stock's case, he's gone with "young & hungry" in recent years with Dearmon, Stewart, Stockstill, Tucker, & Gilstrap. Incidently, it's these "young & hungry" former MT players that are some of MT's best guys on the recruiting trail.

Here's the point : Most - if not all - of the GoMiddle board agrees its probably time for Stock to retire. But we have to be fair, consistent, and balanced in our approach. It's not fair to complain that MT doesn't hire former players & then complain when they do. It's not fair to complain when MT doesn't engage the fans & then complain when they do.

 

[RaiderDoug]

There's no one singular roadmap to football success. Some successful staffs are "inbred", some aren't. Some have a lot of turnover, some don't. Some coaches and staff's love to engage with fans. Some don't. Some are young and hungry, some are grizzled veteran staffs.

No matter how a head coach wants to build or conduct his program, his performance ultimately has to meet a reasonable standard.

 

[MidTennMtneer]

There's no one singular roadmap to football success. Some successful staffs are "inbred", some aren't. Some have a lot of turnover, some don't. Some coaches and staff's love to engage with fans. Some don't. Some are young and hungry, some are grizzled veteran staffs.

No matter how a head coach wants to build or conduct his program, his performance ultimately has to meet a reasonable standard.

And therein lies the issue. Stock was given a set of standards for performance incentive, biggest being extensions, and he has met those standards.

Are they what I would've set them at, nope. No way. Has he met my, or nearly all here, standards? Nope. No way.

But he met what was given to him, a bare minimum, and here we are. Stock drives me crazy but I don't fault the man at all. As others have said, be ticked at the admin. Being upset at Stock and his staff is understandable, we all are, but it isn't the big issue.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

This contract has always been miscommunicated on this board as the threshold was raised when he renegotiated his deal with the first extension to 7 overall or six conference wins. Still not good but better than the original. The second iteration also capped the auto extensions after five years. That too has been met so no longer any auto extensions. His second extensions - where he deferred his $100K increase for three years for three additional years - was a joke. He was extended through the ‘25 season at that time (which is paid through early 2026). He makes roughly $1.1M annually after the auto pay raises, so he has four years left including this year. At the end of ‘22 his buyout would be $3.3M.

Could the U secretly renegotiated another extension without anyone knowing? Possibly because we have no beat writer, But I think it would have triggered something in state legislature so unlikely.

So, all that said he’s due over $4M at this moment to complete his contract.

The question is going to be what if he lucks into - let’s say an 8-win season - and now only had three years left. In that scenario would you be willing to extend him for two additional years at $1M if a buyout clause was reduced to say $500K? If he floundered in ‘23 then you could buyout then and save $1.6M. I would be willing to accept that. But I think reality is he’s more likely to lose eight than win eight this year. And if that occurs we still owe him more than $3M.

Thanks for clarifying because I’ve quit trying to keep up. I personally like reading your posts and wish you were here more often but I understand. Whatever version, the original or some recent iteration of it, this contractual agreement is the arguably worst thing that has happened to this Athletic Program. The highest paid employee of the school for years has been handsomely rewarded for being barely above .500. I don’t blame him. I blame the other signatures on the contract. Stock has done pretty much what was expected of him (except for ‘19 and ‘20) per the agreement and extension addendums.

Whether it’s reported ticket sales, attendance, fundraising, actual buyout or years remaining on this contract, etc., I’ve been conditioned to just dismiss it.

 

[JohnDavidBlue]

Trying to understand the mindset of Chris and Sydney’s perspective when thinking out this contract stuff

interesting article if you consider our plot.
https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/11/7/20905253/college-football-coach-contracts

 

[FranklinRaider315]

Trying to understand the mindset of Chris and Sydney’s perspective when thinking out this contract stuff

interesting article if you consider our plot.
https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/11/7/20905253/college-football-coach-contracts

Kentucky is probably not a good comparison for our situation. They have a Basketball program that prints money and could probably help sustain two Football programs. Our basketball program barely supports itself. 😂

 

[MidTennMtneer]

Trying to understand the mindset of Chris and Sydney’s perspective when thinking out this contract stuff

interesting article if you consider our plot.
https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/11/7/20905253/college-football-coach-contracts

This line of thought just shows even more so how our admin blew it.

When he made his first bowl his first year, yay. Bonus. After 2009, year 4, I had no problem with a contract being extended for 6 wins. The standard of bowls had been set. Then as MT01 said they got bumped to 7 wins. Ok, good. But the extensions were still going at what, year 13? For the same benchmark?!?!

The standards should have progressed up as he was here longer, just as suggested in this article. 8, 9, 10 wins. No losing seasons allowed. Champ game every 4 years minimum. Winning 75% of games during contract period or something along those lines.

CM blew it.

 

[BRaiderDave]

I've never been mad at CRS for his contract. He'd be dumb not to milk it for all it's worth. I'm mad at Massaro and McPhee for saddling the university with the contract. In the private sector it would be grounds for them to be dismissed.

 

[sWiley]

Some factors at play are expectations. I just don't think anyone at MT (besides the fans) have ever had any expectations for our football program. McPhee and Massaro really do think winning 6-7 games and being middle of the pack is okay, as reflected in the previous bonus structure in Rick's contract.

After the enormous fan backlash and nobody going to the games anymore, they have obviously had to re-think their approach which is why Rick can't get easy extensions for winning 6 or 7 games anymore.

We've had a major facilities problem for two decades. We've had major problems in administration with McPhee just being an idiot plus not caring about our major athletics programs. I sometimes do think Massaro and Stockstill are doing the best they can with the poor situation overall, but they too have made a lot of stupid mistakes and head scratching decisions.

Really in a time like this you need fresh blood across the board. From the president, to the AD, to the coaches. But big government higher education is a bureaucratic nightmare devoid of any accountability and will remain so until the people of this country say enough is enough. And that will never happen as government continues to expand and get more people on it's payrolls (both employees and benefit recipients)

It is a growing cancer that will slowly consume all that is good. MT and MT athletics is a microcosm of the bigger picture problem.

 

[MTLynn]

But big government higher education is a bureaucratic nightmare devoid of any accountability

 

[sWiley]

View embedded media

I wouldn't say it is dead but it's certainly not the trendy thing to do anymore. With hundreds of billions of dollars in endowments, higher education institutions won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[RaiderDoug]

Trying to understand the mindset of Chris and Sydney’s perspective when thinking out this contract stuff

interesting article if you consider our plot.
https://www.bannersociety.com/platform/amp/2019/11/7/20905253/college-football-coach-contracts

I'm not sure the auto-renewal contract in and of itself was the great evil at work here.

The conditions that were set (the bare minimum of 6 wins or whatever) were the problem. I"m not sure i'd have a problem with giving 4 years per conference title, 2 years per 10+ win season, 1 year at 8 w/bowl win.

I'm not entirely sure who's at fault. Certainly, Massaro/McPhee share blame for actually agreeing to set the bar so low.

But if they went into it in good faith - kind of like, "hey, we'll set this provision knowing that rebuilding years happen at our level but we still expect us to strive for championships". And then Stock simply took it as the only performance requirement - why do any more than the bare minimum?

 

[JohnDavidBlue]

a new buzzword right now is “quiet quitting”. Stock was just ahead of the curve.

 

[dukewayne]

a new buzzword right now is “quiet quitting”. Stock was just ahead of the curve.

Reflective of a similar term I remember from an 80s Clint Eastwood movie that I've mentioned a few times regarding this crew running MT: They've gone ROAD - Retired On Active Duty.

 

[blueraiderJT]

How bout JBTDSS? (Judgement Before The Damn Season Starts) LOL. I reserve judgement until I see a few games first. I get the frustration but it's such a broken record to me now. Not hating, just stating.

 

[MidTennMtneer]

How bout JBTDSS? (Judgement Before The Damn Season Starts) LOL. I reserve judgement until I see a few games first. I get the frustration but it's such a broken record to me now. Not hating, just stating.

Yup. That's why I always say my head says 6-6, my heart says 12-0. I always expect my heart to win when I turn on a game. 😀

 

[RaiderDoug]

How bout JBTDSS? (Judgement Before The Damn Season Starts) LOL. I reserve judgement until I see a few games first. I get the frustration but it's such a broken record to me now. Not hating, just stating.

Because the program blew any semblance of benefit of the doubt or fan equity years ago. Say what you will about the preseason rags, but they generally can figure out who's going to finish in the top half and bottom half of each conference. It's hard to get excited about this.

I suppose, that the 17th time could be the charm and we could come out and perform at a high level. It could happen.

 

[FranklinRaider315]

Because the program blew any semblance of benefit of the doubt or fan equity years ago. Say what you will about the preseason rags, but they generally can figure out who's going to finish in the top half and bottom half of each conference. It's hard to get excited about this.

I suppose, that the 17th time could be the charm and we could come out and perform at a high level. It could happen.

👍 Right there with you!!! Preach!