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The religion-hating left

nashvillegoldenflash

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Dec 10, 2006
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With an economy in the toilet and global terrorism on the rise, it's interesting that the leftist media are more concerned about Governor Scott Walker's response to the question of evolution (see link). Just like with Gov. (Reverend) Huckabee, the leftist media never seem to get around to asking about economic issues or foreign policy issues. They are too busy confronting him about Bible stories. Any Christian will face the same gauntlet from the religion haters. Gov. Walker will just have to get used to it because this is exactly what he will get from the religion-hating left over the coming months.

"Both science & my faith dictate my belief that we are created by God. I believe faith & science are compatible, & go hand in hand." -- Gov. Scott Walker









Scott Walker
 
FWIW, I consider myself an athiest, and also fall on the conservative side for most issues. I don't have a problem with the "left" bringing it to light - its the same thing the right wingers do when so fixated on Obama.

I feel like we've turned government into a team sport - where one side must win and one side must lose. All we've done is make sure we all lose.

As for Walker, I'm not anti-religion (believe whatever floats your boat), but I'd prefer to keep the nuts out of government. I never understood the people who so hate the Muslim extremists in the Middle East are so hell-bent on establishing a theocracy here.

While this makes nice shouting points on the "news" orginizations - sanity will prevail in the long run and the theocrats will fade into the background when election time nears.
 
RaiderDoug, I realize I'm one of the conservative "nuts" you are referring to but could you please explain why you believe Gov. Walker is one of them? Although I don't share your atheist view, I respect your honesty for admitting you are one. You claim that you are not anti-religion but at the same time you state you "prefer to keep the nuts out of government." What has Gov. Walker said or done that makes you believe he is a nut? Before you answer, let me say that I realize only bigbadjohn and Blueraider_Mike seem to share my religious views so don't feel like you are in the minority on this issue and have to defend it. Whether you or others agree with me or not, the truth of the matter I have been very honest about my views on public and domestic policy on this forum and only ask that you do the same.
 
Perhaps he's not a "nut" per se.

However, I'd prefer our leaders to keep their religion out of the decisions they're making for a secular society.

If you cannot, they you are unfit to lead, IMHO. Scott Walker has shown that he cannot or will not on several occasions:

"Any major decision I've made in my life, politics or otherwise, I've tried to discern God's calling on." - Gov. Walker.

"I really think there's a reason why God put all these political thoughts in my head." - Gov. Walker.



There are way too many decisions (abortion, birth control, same-sex marriage, end-of-life decisions, immunizations) by the government that affect all of us - Christians, Non-Christians, and the Non-Religious - to have them made by one man "discerning god's calling".
 
RaiderDoug, I appreciate your honest response but frankly was expecting you to question Gov. Walker's belief that faith and science are compatible and that was the reason you thought him to be a nut. But for those who might question how faith and science are compatible, I have taken the liberty to share notes from debates on creation and evolution that took place at Kent State University on March 15, 2004 (see link for full notes).


What spectrum of views do religionists hold who oppose Darwinism?
The term "creationist" is in such widespread use as a pejorative term, referring in the majority of cases to uneducated people who carry on warfare against the science establishment in defense of a literal interpretation of the Bible as the Word of God, that many people who share some of their beliefs shun the label "creationist." A range of views should be recognized here; it is very common to regard the origin of life as the act of the Creator. Some believe in a "young earth," some 6000 years old. Some believe that every new species was separately created. Some believe that the gaps between phyla (fish, reptiles, birds, mammals) indicate special creative acts. Some believe that at least humans were separately created.

What is at stake for creationists in the debate over evolution?
The purpose and meaningfulness of life.
The significance of human life.
God's truth in a war.

Interpreting Genesis
(D) If you work with contemporary hermeneutics (methods of interpretation) you can find room to accommodate science and religion: the account of creation in Genesis was not intended to answer current scientific questions (Ernan McMullin, pp. 173-75)
(C) If you interpret Genesis honestly, and in accord with many prominent scholars, you find that the text originally intended to communicate something close to what a common-sense reading indicates (Alvin Plantinga, 215-217).

Understanding creationism
There is a war going on in our culture, and cultural forces like science are not neutral in the fight. Current science gives "no consideration whatever to the possibility that mind or spirit preceded matter" (73).
It's necessary to rethink science from a Christian perspective.

Facts seemingly inconsistent with intelligent design
Mass extinctions
Ubiquity of pain, suffering, death
Astronomic cataclysms

Facts that seemingly invite the concept of intelligent design
The universe is on the whole orderly, in a manner comprehensible to our intelligence, is evidence that we and it were fashioned by a common intelligence. What is truly a miracle, in the pejorative sense of an event having no rational connection with what has gone before, is the emergence of a being with consciousness, free will, and a capacity to understand the laws of nature in a universe which in the beginning contained only matter in mindless motion." (71).
Attempts to mediate the debate by philosophers and others
Strategy #1. Distinguish science from philosophy and religion. Science as such makes no philosophical affirmations, either religious or naturalistic. Those such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and William Provine who are materialists, atheists, naturalists, and evolutionists, and who see everything as a united "package deal" do not speak for all evolutionists (364).
Strategy #2. Affirm our common humanity; understand our differences--and shared specifics; and appreciate the uniqueness of each personality.
Strategy #3. Set aside abusive, hostile, dismissive, polemical rhetoric and attitudes.______________________________________________________________________
Note: Dr. Jeffrey Wattles also believes that you can have an integrated view of creation and evolution. Dr. Wattles holds a B.A. in philosophy from Stanford University and a M.A. and Ph.D. in philosophy from Northwestern University. Other academics, including the late Dr. Ernan McMullin, the emeritus philosophy professor at Notre Dame, also believe you can integrate both a Darwin and intelligent design perspective on the discussion.

Creation and evolution: Notes on the debates
 
Originally posted by nashvillegoldenflash:
RaiderDoug, I appreciate your honest response but frankly was expecting you to question Gov. Walker's belief that faith and science are compatible and that was the reason you thought him to be a nut. But for those who might question how faith and science are compatible, I have taken the liberty to share notes from debates on creation and evolution that took place at Kent State University on March 15, 2004 (see link for full notes).



What spectrum of views do religionists hold who oppose Darwinism?

The term "creationist" is in such widespread use as a pejorative term, referring in the majority of cases to uneducated people who carry on warfare against the science establishment in defense of a literal interpretation of the Bible as the Word of God, that many people who share some of their beliefs shun the label "creationist." A range of views should be recognized here; it is very common to regard the origin of life as the act of the Creator. Some believe in a "young earth," some 6000 years old. Some believe that every new species was separately created. Some believe that the gaps between phyla (fish, reptiles, birds, mammals) indicate special creative acts. Some believe that at least humans were separately created.



What is at stake for creationists in the debate over evolution?

The purpose and meaningfulness of life.

The significance of human life.

God's truth in a war.



Interpreting Genesis

(D) If you work with contemporary hermeneutics (methods of interpretation) you can find room to accommodate science and religion: the account of creation in Genesis was not intended to answer current scientific questions (Ernan McMullin, pp. 173-75)

(C) If you interpret Genesis honestly, and in accord with many prominent scholars, you find that the text originally intended to communicate something close to what a common-sense reading indicates (Alvin Plantinga, 215-217).



Understanding creationism

There is a war going on in our culture, and cultural forces like science are not neutral in the fight. Current science gives "no consideration whatever to the possibility that mind or spirit preceded matter" (73).

It's necessary to rethink science from a Christian perspective.



Facts seemingly inconsistent with intelligent design

Mass extinctions

Ubiquity of pain, suffering, death

Astronomic cataclysms



Facts that seemingly invite the concept of intelligent design

The universe is on the whole orderly, in a manner comprehensible to our intelligence, is evidence that we and it were fashioned by a common intelligence. What is truly a miracle, in the pejorative sense of an event having no rational connection with what has gone before, is the emergence of a being with consciousness, free will, and a capacity to understand the laws of nature in a universe which in the beginning contained only matter in mindless motion." (71).


Attempts to mediate the debate by philosophers and others

Strategy #1. Distinguish science from philosophy and religion. Science as such makes no philosophical affirmations, either religious or naturalistic. Those such as Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and William Provine who are materialists, atheists, naturalists, and evolutionists, and who see everything as a united "package deal" do not speak for all evolutionists (364).

Strategy #2. Affirm our common humanity; understand our differences--and shared specifics; and appreciate the uniqueness of each personality.

Strategy #3. Set aside abusive, hostile, dismissive, polemical rhetoric and attitudes.______________________________________________________________________
Note: Dr. Jeffrey Wattles also believes that you can have an integrated view of creation and evolution. Dr. Wattles holds a B.A. in philosophy from Stanford University and a M.A. and Ph.D. in philosophy from Northwestern University. Other academics, including the late Dr. Ernan McMullin, the emeritus philosophy professor at Notre Dame, also believe you can integrate both a Darwin and intelligent design perspective on the discussion.
I had a big long response typed out, but as I re-read it, I came across as one of those militant-athiest jerk types and I don't want to do that.

I will say that as an athiest, we do not feel any compulsion to find any compatibility between faith and science.

I'm not anti-religion but, bringing this back to Walker - I strongly believe that in a society that cherishes diversity and freedom of belief and thought and action, having any one leader that are so bound to any religious custom is, well, not beneficial for us all.
 
RaiderDoug, I realize there are amiable atheists and militant-atheists. I appreciate that you are the former. When I was stationed in Germany, I knew another soldier from Wichita, Kansas who was also an atheist. Like you, he wasn't militant about his atheism and we were able to have some discussion about it. David was what I would call a caring person who was troubled by all the pain and suffering in the world. When he asked me why God would allow so many innocent people suffer, all I could tell him was someday, in heaven, we will understand. Obviously, that was not a good enough answer to satisfy him and I have no idea whether he still remains an atheist today. The important thing was we still had respect for each other, although as a believer, I find it difficult to understand why people can look at the amazing human body and how it works or watch the beauty of a spectacular sunset and not believe there is a creator. But that's okay as long as you respect my right to worship.
 
Originally posted by nashvillegoldenflash:
RaiderDoug, I realize there are amiable atheists and militant-atheists. I appreciate that you are the former. When I was stationed in Germany, I knew another soldier from Wichita, Kansas who was also an atheist. Like you, he wasn't militant about his atheism and we were able to have some discussion about it. David was what I would call a caring person who was troubled by all the pain and suffering in the world. When he asked me why God would allow so many innocent people suffer, all I could tell him was someday, in heaven, we will understand. Obviously, that was not a good enough answer to satisfy him and I have no idea whether he still remains an atheist today. The important thing was we still had respect for each other, although as a believer, I find it difficult to understand why people can look at the amazing human body and how it works or watch the beauty of a spectacular sunset and not believe there is a creator. But that's okay as long as you respect my right to worship.
+1
3dgrin.r191677.gif
 
"FWIW, I consider myself an athiest...."

Doug, you and I have had some good conversations in the past, and although we may not always agree, we've always maintained a degree of courtesy and respect for one another's opinions.

Regarding your comment about considering yourself an athiest, I'd like to ask you a few questions if I may.

Do I assume rightly that you believe that God does not exist (atheism is the view that God does not exist) ? Do you feel that you could believe in God if He could somehow reveal Himself and prove His existence to you? I'd be very much interested in hearing your answers to these questions.

Thanks in advance.

--BBJ



This post was edited on 2/19 10:47 AM by bigbadjohn45
 
"No matter what the apparent conflict between materialism and the teachings of Jesus may be, you can rest assured that, in the ages to come, the teachings of the Master will fully triumph. "
 
Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:
"FWIW, I consider myself an athiest...."

Doug, you and I have had some good conversations in the past, and although we may not always agree, we've always maintained a degree of courtesy and respect for one another's opinions.

Regarding your comment about considering yourself an athiest, I'd like to ask you a few questions if I may.

Do I assume rightly that you believe that God does not exist (atheism is the view that God does not exist) ? Do you feel that you could believe in God if He could somehow reveal Himself and prove His existence to you? I'd be very much interested in hearing your answers to these questions.

Thanks in advance.

--BBJ



This post was edited on 2/19 10:47 AM by bigbadjohn45
Yes.

I can't imagine anyone (of any belief), when confronted with indisputable proof, would still refuse to acknowledge what the evidence shows to be true.
 
Originally posted by RaiderDoug:


Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:
"FWIW, I consider myself an athiest...."

Doug, you and I have had some good conversations in the past, and although we may not always agree, we've always maintained a degree of courtesy and respect for one another's opinions.

Regarding your comment about considering yourself an athiest, I'd like to ask you a few questions if I may.

Do I assume rightly that you believe that God does not exist (atheism is the view that God does not exist) ? Do you feel that you could believe in God if He could somehow reveal Himself and prove His existence to you? I'd be very much interested in hearing your answers to these questions.

Thanks in advance.

--BBJ





This post was edited on 2/19 10:47 AM by bigbadjohn45
Yes.

I can't imagine anyone (of any belief), when confronted with indisputable proof, would still refuse to acknowledge what the evidence shows to be true.
Doug, I appreciate your honest response.



So, why doesn't God simply reveal Himself to people, proving that He exists? Surely if God would just appear, the thinking goes, everyone would believe in Him! The problem here is that it is not God's desire to just convince people that He exists. It is God's desire for people to believe in Him by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). God's desire is for people to become Christians, not just theists (those who believe God exists).

The Bible tells us that God's existence must be accepted by faith
. John 20:29).

The existence of God must be accepted by faith, but this does not mean belief in God is illogical. There are many good arguments for the existence of God:

1) The Bible teaches that God's existence is clearly seen in the universe.
The Bible states, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4),

2) The Bible teaches that God's existence is clearly seen In nature.Romans 1:18-22), and,

3)
In our own hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

With all that said, the existence of God cannot be proven; it must be accepted by faith.

At the same time, it takes just as much faith to believe in atheism.
To make the absolute statement "God does not exist" is to make a claim of knowing absolutely everything there is to know about everything and of having been everywhere in the universe and having witnessed everything there is to be seen. Of course, no atheist would make these claims. However, that is essentially what they are claiming when they state that God absolutely does not exist. Atheists cannot prove that God does not, for example, live in the center of the sun, or beneath the clouds of Jupiter, or in some distant nebula. Since those places are beyond our capacity to observe, it cannot be proven that God does not exist. It takes just as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a theist.

Atheism cannot be proven, and God's existence must be accepted by faith
. Obviously, Christians believe strongly that God exists, and admit that God's existence is a matter of faith. At the same time, we reject the idea that belief in God is illogical. We believe that God's existence can be clearly seen, keenly sensed, and proven to be philosophically and scientifically necessary. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4).

Doug, I hope this helps, but there is much more I could add to this. Please give me your thoughts regarding what I've posted and I'll be glad to respond to it.

Thanks again.

--BBJ









This post was edited on 2/20 6:42 AM by bigbadjohn45
 
Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:



Doug, I appreciate your honest response.
So, why doesn't God simply reveal Himself to people, proving that He exists? Surely if God would just appear, the thinking goes, everyone would believe in Him! The problem here is that it is not God's desire to just convince people that He exists. It is God's desire for people to believe in Him by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). God's desire is for people to become Christians, not just theists (those who believe God exists).

The Bible tells us that God's existence must be accepted by faith
. John 20:29).

The existence of God must be accepted by faith, but this does not mean belief in God is illogical. There are many good arguments for the existence of God:

1) The Bible teaches that God's existence is clearly seen in the universe.
The Bible states, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4),

2) The Bible teaches that God's existence is clearly seen In nature.Romans 1:18-22), and,

3) In our own hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

With all that said, the existence of God cannot be proven; it must be accepted by faith.

At the same time, it takes just as much faith to believe in atheism.
To make the absolute statement "God does not exist" is to make a claim of knowing absolutely everything there is to know about everything and of having been everywhere in the universe and having witnessed everything there is to be seen. Of course, no atheist would make these claims. However, that is essentially what they are claiming when they state that God absolutely does not exist. Atheists cannot prove that God does not, for example, live in the center of the sun, or beneath the clouds of Jupiter, or in some distant nebula. Since those places are beyond our capacity to observe, it cannot be proven that God does not exist. It takes just as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a theist.

Atheism cannot be proven, and God's existence must be accepted by faith
. Obviously, Christians believe strongly that God exists, and admit that God's existence is a matter of faith. At the same time, we reject the idea that belief in God is illogical. We believe that God's existence can be clearly seen, keenly sensed, and proven to be philosophically and scientifically necessary. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4).
You can't bring the Bible to a discussion with an athiest.

I don't want to offend you - but the Bible has a credibility problem.

If you take one part of the bible as absolute truth, you have to take the rest of it as absolute truth as well. And that's a road that we don't want to go down.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm





Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:



The existence of God must be accepted by faith, but this does not mean belief in God is illogical. There are many good arguments for the existence of God:

1) The Bible teaches that God's existence is clearly seen in the universe.
The Bible states, "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4),

2) The Bible teaches that God's existence is clearly seen In nature.Romans 1:18-22), and,

3) In our own hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

With all that said, the existence of God cannot be proven; it must be accepted by faith.

The Bible teaches?

The Bible also teaches that rape is OK if we can cough up 50 pieces of silver.

It teaches us that there are fire breathing dragons!

And slavery is totally cool! As long as you keep your slave for only 6 years. Unless at the end of 6 years the slave publicly declares that he loves his master, then the master (get this) has to take him to a temple where the slave will get his ears pierced, and then he belongs to the master forever. Also, if you beat your slave, make sure they don't die right away, if they linger for a few days - no problem. If they die right away - then you're in trouble with God. It reads like an instruction manual.

That book is so full of absurdities, I don't see how anyone can take any of it seriously.

It does take great faith to read the Bible and in your heart believe the statements that you know, from your own experiences on this Earth, not to be true.




Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:




At the same time, it takes just as much faith to believe in atheism.
To make the absolute statement "God does not exist" is to make a claim of knowing absolutely everything there is to know about everything and of having been everywhere in the universe and having witnessed everything there is to be seen. Of course, no atheist would make these claims. However, that is essentially what they are claiming when they state that God absolutely does not exist. Atheists cannot prove that God does not, for example, live in the center of the sun, or beneath the clouds of Jupiter, or in some distant nebula. Since those places are beyond our capacity to observe, it cannot be proven that God does not exist. It takes just as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a theist.

Atheism cannot be proven, and God's existence must be accepted by faith
. Obviously, Christians believe strongly that God exists, and admit that God's existence is a matter of faith. At the same time, we reject the idea that belief in God is illogical. We believe that God's existence can be clearly seen, keenly sensed, and proven to be philosophically and scientifically necessary. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world" (Psalm 19:1-4).
The burden of proof definately doesn't fall on the athiest argument.

I don't think the standard if saying something "doesn't exist" is the same as saying something "does definately exist".

If I tell you that I have a sasquatch living in my garage - what's the first thing you're going to say?

"Show me".

If I say, well, I can't, but I wrote this book about him and you'll just have to take my word for it - what does every fiber of your being tell you to think about me and what I said?


Also, you're trying to punch a hole in the athiest argument due to the fact that it takes faith to definately assert that there is no God.

Youre asking me to disprove God.

I can't, that’s true, but it’s true for one very important reason: you can’t disprove something you don’t have proof of. I can’t disprove leprechauns, or ghosts, or Smurfs, or anything that I don’t first have proof of.


Using that same logic:

"That the atheist arguement is also one of faith and that as such, there must be room for doubt"

Don't you also have to agree that the same rules of logic also apply to the faith of the believers?

If so, then you must have at least some room for doubt as to the validity of your faith. Are you willing to admit that there's at least some possibility that you're mistaken in your beliefs?

The athiest position is flexible. There might be a God (the probablity of this being true
is so small that we don't believe it's even worth of consideration). But you're right, we don't have all the answers.

The believer's position is not - there is definately a God and this is definately what happened, etc, etc. etc.



This post was edited on 2/20 9:08 AM by RaiderDoug
 
Doug, I appreciate your responses. Your statement about the Bible having "a credibility problem" is something I've heard before. Is this the reason you're an atheist?



The thing about it Doug, is if you read the Bible at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors, you will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years. Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some minor differences. However, a difference is not a contradiction. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if an answer is not available right now, that does not mean an answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.

I guess it's easy to say "Explain how these verses do not contradict!" or "Look, here is an error in the Bible!" Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer. However, it is my contention that there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error. There are books and websites available that list "all the errors in the Bible." Most people simply get their ammunition from these places; they do not find supposed errors on their own. There are also books and websites available that refute every one of these supposed errors. The saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer. Many "Bible attackers" are even aware of these answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.

However, I believe the real issue here is not so much whether the Bible has "credibility" or not. We could debate certain verses, passages, etc., all day long, but I'm not sure, as I said earlier, that you'd be interested in my answers.

The real question at play here is what are you going to do about eternity, Doug? When you die, what do you believe happens to you? If you believe there is no God, you most likely believe there is no future beyond your life here on earth. Am I correct on that?

Thanks again for your responses.





This post was edited on 2/20 1:03 PM by bigbadjohn45
 
Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:




The real question at play here is what are you going to do about eternity, Doug? When you die, what do you believe happens to you? If you believe there is no God, you most likely believe there is no future beyond your life here on earth. Am I correct on that?

Thanks again for your responses.






This post was edited on 2/20 1:03 PM by bigbadjohn45
We can debate the bible all we want. To be honest, I don't know if I can agree that the "bible is open to interpretation". Many of the contradictions, absurdities, oddities, and just plain falsehoods are as plain as day.


I can't tell you what happens after we die.

It doesn't really matter to me since we're all headed there anyway.

Maybe nothing. Maybe we come back as bugs or cows or more people. Maybe we're ghosts. Or, maybe there's a heaven or a hell (honestly, I find this to be far-fetched). Maybe there's a harem with 72 virgins (more farfetched than heaven/hell).

The whole concept of heaven/hell/afterlife just doesn't work for me.

What's the point of heaven? "Heaven" for one person might actually be a "hell" for another. Why doesn't God just make the real world awesome instead of making us pass this test? I don't want to spend eternity hanging out with my dead relatives. I didn't even want to hang out with them when they were here.

And I don't believe in the concept of Hell whatsoever - which was clearly and obviously created by religious authority as a means of control (do what I say or else!!!).

Many of these points that you're bringing up, i've discussed with my wife, who is an uber-religious baptist and still goes to church with her family. I sleep in and watch NFL gameday. I grew up Catholic, sometime about age 20, the more I tried to think about it, the more it just never made sense to me. I've wavered between agnosticism and athiesm ever since.
 
RaiderDoug, since I don't personally know you, it's really difficult to discern whether you are angry like so many other atheists. However, in the video entitled, "Why are atheists so angry?," Hermant Mehta, of friendlyatheist.com, expresses a similar concern of elected officials whose faith is the basis of policy making. Mehta says the following:

"But you try living in a country where just about every elected official believes in God and then believes that God and their faith should be the basis of policy making. You would get upset too. Or if you had to say prayers in school or recite the Pledge of Allegiance, saying, 'We're a nation under God,' or you saw religion everywhere you went in city council meetings, in your family, at every event you attended-- yeah, you might get a little upset that all this delusion that's all around you. And it's not just someone's private beliefs. It's something they want you to be a part of as well. You might get a little ticked off as well."
RaiderDoug, I understand that your concept of heaven is not all that appealing to you. But what I hope you will understand is BBJ and other Christians, including your wife, just want you to have eternal life. Their desire is out of love. And BBJ is sharing his faith for the right reasons. Like you, I don't believe that Christians should shove their beliefs down anyone's throat but I really don't believe that BBJ is attempting to do that with you. Since you claim that you have wavered between agnosticism and atheism, all BBJ is asking you to do is truly seek God with an open mind. As BBJ suggests, if you open your heart, ask God to reveal Himself to you, and seek Him sincerely, you will find Him.




This post was edited on 2/20 9:14 PM by nashvillegoldenflash

Why are atheists so angry?
 
Originally posted by RaiderDoug:

Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:





The real question at play here is what are you going to do about eternity, Doug? When you die, what do you believe happens to you? If you believe there is no God, you most likely believe there is no future beyond your life here on earth. Am I correct on that?

Thanks again for your responses.







This post was edited on 2/20 1:03 PM by bigbadjohn45
We can debate the bible all we want. To be honest, I don't know if I can agree that the "bible is open to interpretation". Many of the contradictions, absurdities, oddities, and just plain falsehoods are as plain as day.


I can't tell you what happens after we die.

It doesn't really matter to me since we're all headed there anyway.

Maybe nothing. Maybe we come back as bugs or cows or more people. Maybe we're ghosts. Or, maybe there's a heaven or a hell (honestly, I find this to be far-fetched). Maybe there's a harem with 72 virgins (more farfetched than heaven/hell).

The whole concept of heaven/hell/afterlife just doesn't work for me.

What's the point of heaven? "Heaven" for one person might actually be a "hell" for another. Why doesn't God just make the real world awesome instead of making us pass this test? I don't want to spend eternity hanging out with my dead relatives. I didn't even want to hang out with them when they were here.

And I don't believe in the concept of Hell whatsoever - which was clearly and obviously created by religious authority as a means of control (do what I say or else!!!).

Many of these points that you're bringing up, i've discussed with my wife, who is an uber-religious baptist and still goes to church with her family. I sleep in and watch NFL gameday. I grew up Catholic, sometime about age 20, the more I tried to think about it, the more it just never made sense to me. I've wavered between agnosticism and athiesm ever since.
Doug, so sorry I'm just now getting back with you.. Hope you didn't think I was through talking with you--because I'm not--but I had a little incident yesterday when I slipped and fell on the ice while loading some firewood. Nothing is broken (I don't think), but my shoulder and side are sore as the dickens today!

At any rate, I just read my friend Nashville Flash's post concerning our discussion. Flash is right, my sole purpose here is to help you. I don't know you other than our posts back and forth, and I've never met you. The fact that we haven't met is not really the issue here. The issue is that you're still a human being that God loves. In fact, God loves you so much that he gave His only begotten Son to die on a cruel cross for you. And, if you were the only person living in the world, He would've still died--just for you. That's how much He loves you.

You see Doug, we're all infected with the disease of sin--every one of us. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23 KJV). That's why we're in need of the Savior.



The thing about it, Doug, is that nothing can compare with all that is ours in Christ when we find salvation. Forgiveness. Justification. Adoption. Eternal life. What a glorious life the Gospel offers to those who are searching for purpose and meaning or to those who have found that materialism and sensual pleasure are not the answer to the deepest yearnings of the heart.

The crowning glory of salvation is promised when we enter into the presence of the King. We have a home in heaven reserved for us and awards that await us. No wonder the Gospel is "Good News."


Unfortunately, many people today have distorted the meaning of salvation, saying that it means only political, social and economic liberation in this life. Certainly, Christians should be concerned about injustice and do what they can to promote a more just world. But lasting and complete liberation from social injustice will come only when Jesus Christ returns to establish His Kingdom. Biblical salvation is far deeper, because it gets to the root of our problem-the problem of sin. Only Christ can change the human heart and replace greed and hate with compassion and love.
Do you understand God's plan of salvation?

There are certain points we all need to understand about the heart of the Good News of Christ.



First, all are sinners and stand under the judgment of God. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23, NIV). We might believe that we are good enough to win God's favor or that we can perform certain religious acts to counterbalance our bad deeds. But the Bible states that we are all condemned, for "there is no one righteous, not even one" (Romans 3:10, NIV).


Second, we need to understand what Christ has done to make our salvation possible. God loves us, and Christ came to make forgiveness and salvation possible. What did He do? He died on the cross as the complete sacrifice for our sins. He took upon Himself the judgment that we deserve.


Third, we need to respond to God's work. God in His grace offers us the gift of eternal life. But like any gift, it becomes ours only when we take it.

We must repent of our sins. Repentance carries with it the idea of confession, sorrow, turning and changing. We cannot ask forgiveness over and over again for our sins and then return to those sins, expecting God to forgive us. We must turn from our practice of sin as best we know how, and turn by faith to Christ as our Lord and Savior. "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9, NIV). Christ invites us to come to Him, and God has promised, "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" (John 1:12, NIV).



Fourth, we must understand the cost of coming to Christ and following Christ. Jesus constantly called upon those who would follow Him to count the cost. A person must determine to leave his sins behind and turn from them. Some people may be unwilling to do so. And there may be other costs as well when we decide to follow Christ. In some cultures, a person who turns to Christ may be disowned by family, alienated from social life, imprisoned or even killed.

The ultimate cost of true discipleship is the cost of renouncing self: self-will, self-plans, self-motivations. Christ is to be Lord of our lives. Jesus declared, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23, NIV). Jesus does not call us to a life of selfish comfort and ease-He calls us to a battle! He calls us to give up our own plans and to follow Him without reserve-even to death.

Yes, it costs to follow Christ. But it also costs not to follow Christ. It cost the Apostle Paul the prestige of a high-level position in the Jewish nation. But he declared, "whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things" (Philippians 3:7-8, NIV). Christ calls men and women not only to trust Him as Savior, but also to follow Him as Lord.



Fifth, salvation is intimately linked to the cross. The man who hung there between two thieves was without sin. His virgin birth, by the miraculous intervention of the Holy Spirit, meant that He did not inherit a sinful human nature. Neither did He commit any sin during His lifetime. Mary gave birth to the only perfect child. He became the only perfect man. As such, He was uniquely qualified to put into action God's plan of salvation for mankind.

Why was Calvary's cross so special, so different from hundreds of other crosses used for Roman executions? It was because on that cross Jesus suffered the punishment for sin that we all deserve. He was our Substitute. He suffered the judgment and condemnation of death that our sinful nature and deeds deserve. "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:21, NIV).

Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, "I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2, NIV). Paul knew there was a built-in power in the cross and the resurrection.


Finally, faith is essential for salvation. But we must be absolutely clear on what we mean when we speak of "salvation by faith." There are various kinds of belief or faith, and not all are linked to salvation. In the New Testament, faith means more than intellectual belief. It involves trust and commitment. I may say that I believe a bridge will hold my weight. But I really believe it only when I commit myself to it and walk across it. Saving faith involves an act of commitment and trust, in which I commit my life to Jesus Christ and trust Him alone as my Savior and Lord.

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus's blood and righteousness. It's a tremendous feeling to know that if I should die today, I'd go home to be with the Lord in Heaven.

This is the Good News that I share with you, Doug. I can boldly share the love of Jesus with you because I know what He's done for me. If God can forgive me, just a lowly sinner not worthy of anything--let alone forgiveness--He can save and forgive you, too.

Please let me know if you have any questions, Doug. If I can't answer them, my friends and fellow posters Flash and Mike would be willing to assist, I'm sure. God bless you, Doug.

--BBJ

I also am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. Jesus told us that if we're not willing to acknowledge Him before men, then He's not willing to acknowledge us before His Father who is in Heaven.
 
Originally posted by nashvillegoldenflash:
RaiderDoug, since I don't personally know you, it's really difficult to discern whether you are angry like so many other atheists. However, in the video entitled, "Why are atheists so angry?," Hermant Mehta, of friendlyatheist.com, expresses a similar concern of elected officials whose faith is the basis of policy making. Mehta says the following:

"But you try living in a country where just about every elected official believes in God and then believes that God and their faith should be the basis of policy making. You would get upset too. Or if you had to say prayers in school or recite the Pledge of Allegiance, saying, 'We're a nation under God,' or you saw religion everywhere you went in city council meetings, in your family, at every event you attended-- yeah, you might get a little upset that all this delusion that's all around you. And it's not just someone's private beliefs. It's something they want you to be a part of as well. You might get a little ticked off as well."

RaiderDoug, I understand that your concept of heaven is not all that appealing to you. But what I hope you will understand is BBJ and other Christians, including your wife, just want you to have eternal life. Their desire is out of love. And BBJ is sharing his faith for the right reasons. Like you, I don't believe that Christians should shove their beliefs down anyone's throat but I really don't believe that BBJ is attempting to do that with you. Since you claim that you have wavered between agnosticism and atheism, all BBJ is asking you to do is truly seek God with an open mind. As BBJ suggests, if you open your heart, ask God to reveal Himself to you, and seek Him sincerely, you will find Him.




This post was edited on 2/20 9:14 PM by nashvillegoldenflash
Flash, thank you for your kind words of encouragement to Doug. Also, thank you for rightly explaining that I'm here to help him. It really hurt me and grieved my soul to read that he declares himself to be an atheist. It is for that reason that I felt compelled to witness to him and share the Good News that God loves him and is willing to forgive his sins. He loves us so much that He was willing to send his only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins. All we have to do is believe in our hearts that Jesus is Lord, and confess with our mouths that God has raised Him from the dead and we shall be saved, says the Scripture.

Please join me in prayer that God will speak to Doug and convict him of the fact that he needs the Savior. I appreciate you, Flash.

--BBJ
 
BBJ, I also appreciate you my friend. You must understand that Christianity will not make any sense to Doug or anyone else until they feel the Holy Spirit within them. Just give Doug time and I believe he will find the Lord when he is ready to receive Him. Some people wait until they are practically on their death bed before they accept the Lord. When that happens, you know they wished they had accepted the Lord much sooner because it would have made their lives so much better. Although my mother took me to Sunday School and church every Sunday when I was little, it wasn't until the fourth grade until I prayed to God and developed a personal relationship with our Lord. Sure, as a young child my mother had me say my prayers but I wasn't really old enough to truly feel the Holy Spirit until I was about 9 years old. As you know, some people don't experience the Lord's love until much later in life. But as you know, it's not hard to find the Lord when you seek Him. Again, just give Doug time and I believe he will find Him. God bless.

“What Does the Holy Spirit Feel Like?”
 
Guys, I can sincerely appreciate the depth of feeling you have for this subject. I have had this discussion with many people, very few of whom have been as civil as you guys.

But, if I am unable or unwilling to first accept that God even exists - then it isn't just a matter of "accepting" God.

You're operating under the premise that I'm rejecting God. I'm operating under the premise that God is no more real than any other entity that we know does not exist (I won't insult you guys with the smug references that non-believer's like to spout about).

There isn't a middle ground here, although I appreciate you trying.

I'm not lost, or looking....I'm perfectly content with my non-belief.

In fact, it might surprise you that I was able to actually find much more happiness when I stopped trying to figure out "God's plan" and just accepted what I believe to be true in my heart - there is no omnipotent, benevolent being watching over us and taking part in our daily lives.



Take care and be careful out on that ice.
 
And that our founding fathers wanted a country where people were free to believe or not the believe in any religion they wished without having one proclaimed by the state. Hence "The government shall not establish a religion." Our founding fathers went church but it was the only game in town and it was clear from their statements that they wished all citizens to choose their belief system. No one is hating anyone. They are saying that you need to keep your religion out of the public domain.
 
Originally posted by RaiderDoug:
Guys, I can sincerely appreciate the depth of feeling you have for this subject. I have had this discussion with many people, very few of whom have been as civil as you guys.

But, if I am unable or unwilling to first accept that God even exists - then it isn't just a matter of "accepting" God.

You're operating under the premise that I'm rejecting God. I'm operating under the premise that God is no more real than any other entity that we know does not exist (I won't insult you guys with the smug references that non-believer's like to spout about).

There isn't a middle ground here, although I appreciate you trying.

I'm not lost, or looking....I'm perfectly content with my non-belief.

In fact, it might surprise you that I was able to actually find much more happiness when I stopped trying to figure out "God's plan" and just accepted what I believe to be true in my heart - there is no omnipotent, benevolent being watching over us and taking part in our daily lives.



Take care and be careful out on that ice.
Doug, before we end this discussion, I'd like for you to consider something that's extremely important: if you're right and I'm wrong, then you've lost nothing; however, if I'm right and you're wrong, you've lost everything. What if I'm right, Doug? Have you ever considered eternity? I know, it's a difficult concept for us to understand. We think in terms of beginnings and endings; we think in terms of a finite existence. However, again, if I'm right, and there is a God, and all of the things I've presented to you are true, then when you leave this earth, you'll spend forever--an eternity--separated from God. Are you willing to take that gamble?

The greatest lie the Devil has is to convince us that he doesn't exist.

One more thing: have you ever comtemplated how everything came into existence? Did you ever wonder how the heavens and the earth were created? Have you ever considered that it's even remotely possible that a Higher Being could've been responsible? Even scientists agree that the universe has not always been in existence and that it had a beginning point (it did not create itself). Who, or what, set all that in motion?

And, what about us? Who created man? How did we begin? How were we created? Even the Darwinists can't account for that as they have to admit that one species cannot leap to another species.

There is a God, Doug. There is a God who's alive and is interested in the affairs of men and women. And, He created man in His image to have fellowship with Him. That's why we all have a desire to worship. Whether it's God or not, mankind has an innate desire to worship someone or some thing. And the thing is, unless you have a relationship with God through his Son, Jesus Christ, nothing else this world can offer will truly satisify you. If you've ever had that deep down feeling that something is missing in your life--that something is not quite right in youir life--it's the fact that you don't know God through a personal relationship with his Son, Jesus Christ.

Lastly, my job is show you the way to salvation and to witness to you what I have experienced. I have done so. However, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict you of sin and to lead you to Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. It is my sincere prayer that you will come to Him before it's too late. Remember, we have no promise of tomorrow. The Bible describes life as a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Please consider what I've been saying to you. The decisions you make now will have eternal consequences.

God bless you, Doug, and thank you for the kind words you expressed to me and Flash.

--BBJ







This post was edited on 2/23 9:08 AM by bigbadjohn45
 
"In fact, it might surprise you that I was able to actually find much more happiness when I stopped trying to figure out "God's plan" and just accepted what I believe to be true in my heart - there is no omnipotent, benevolent being watching over us and taking part in our daily lives."

The view that most atheists have about Christians is that we are weak because we have faith. As a Christian, I will admit that I'm weak but know that God is strong. Christians not only believe in Christ but believe that we are not strong enough to live happily on our own. As RaiderDoug attests, atheists believe that they are just as happy as Christians. The difference is that atheists believe that they are strong enough to live happily on their own. So Christians are admittedly weak and atheists are admittedly strong. This brings us to the crux of the problem. The admittedly strong cannot be converted by the admittedly weak. But I will argue that it actually takes more strength to admit weakness than stand strong and deny our human frailties. It is humbling to admit that one does not know everything there is to know and we may not be capable of knowing everything there is to know. It's humbling to have faith in a Creator who is much more advanced than us.

I have no idea what it would be like to go through life as Nietzsche's superman but thanks to my Heavenly Father, I will never have to know.

This post was edited on 3/1 4:42 PM by nashvillegoldenflash
 
Originally posted by nashvillegoldenflash:
"In fact, it might surprise you that I was able to actually find much more happiness when I stopped trying to figure out "God's plan" and just accepted what I believe to be true in my heart - there is no omnipotent, benevolent being watching over us and taking part in our daily lives."

The view that most atheists have about Christians is that we are weak because we have faith. As a Christian, I will admit that I'm weak but know that God is strong. Christians not only believe in Christ but believe that we are not strong enough to live happily on our own. As RaiderDoug attests, atheists believe that they are just as happy as Christians. The difference is that atheists believe that they are strong enough to live happily on their own. So Christians are admittedly weak and atheists are admittedly strong. This brings us to the crux of the problem. The admittedly strong cannot be converted by the admittedly weak. But I will argue that it actually takes more strength to admit weakness than stand strong and deny our human frailties. It is humbling to admit that one does not know everything there is to know and we may not be capable of knowing everything there is to know. It's humbling to have faith in a Creator who is much more advanced than us.

I have no idea what it would be like to go through life as Nietzsche's superman but thanks to my Heavenly Father, I will never have to know.


This post was edited on 3/1 4:42 PM by nashvillegoldenflash
You're free to believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to think you're "weak" because of it, well, then
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To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what "weak" means in this context."Weak" "Strong", that just sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook some preacher prattles on about on Sundays. I don't buy any of it.

Like I said before, believe whatever works for you. Others will believe what works for them.

As long as we don't let these beliefs infringe on others or poison our views of those who think differently - it's all good.
 
Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:

Doug, before we end this discussion, I'd like for you to consider something that's extremely important: if you're right and I'm wrong, then you've lost nothing; however, if I'm right and you're wrong, you've lost everything. What if I'm right, Doug? Have you ever considered eternity? I know, it's a difficult concept for us to understand. We think in terms of beginnings and endings; we think in terms of a finite existence. However, again, if I'm right, and there is a God, and all of the things I've presented to you are true, then when you leave this earth, you'll spend forever--an eternity--separated from God. Are you willing to take that gamble?

The greatest lie the Devil has is to convince us that he doesn't exist.
Do you pray to Allah, just in case?

Have you ever thought of what would happen if you're wrong, and the buddhist's are right? You'll never reach Nirvana.

I feel the same way about your Christian God as you do about the Muslim God, therefore the thought of what might happen if i'm wrong doesn't factor into the decision.

It's been said before - but we're all athiests in one way or another. I just have one less God to believe in than you do.

Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:

One more thing: have you ever comtemplated how everything came into existence? Did you ever wonder how the heavens and the earth were created? Have you ever considered that it's even remotely possible that a Higher Being could've been responsible? Even scientists agree that the universe has not always been in existence and that it had a beginning point (it did not create itself). Who, or what, set all that in motion?

And, what about us? Who created man? How did we begin? How were we created? Even the Darwinists can't account for that as they have to admit that one species cannot leap to another species.
Sure, who hasn't. My agnosticism is showing. I don't have the answer, and I don't think we can know, with our limited knowledge of the workings of the universe. Maybe someday.

But just because I don't claim to know doesn't make yours or any particular version any more likely.

In fact, of all the world's religions, origin stories, or every possible idea anyone anywhere has conceived - what are the odds that your particular view - Christian God, Heaven, Salvation, etc, etc, etc - is the correct one? The likelihood of this has to be extremely small. You're own religion is a very small sect of a larger religion, which is not the most widespread religion on earth anyway.

Hoping that you alone (or the relatively small # of people who believe the same thing as you) of the thousands of different belief systems in the world, have hit the magic key to the afterlife is pretty much like holding a lottery ticket. The odds are against you.


Originally posted by bigbadjohn45:

There is a God, Doug. There is a God who's alive and is interested in the affairs of men and women. And, He created man in His image to have fellowship with Him. That's why we all have a desire to worship. Whether it's God or not, mankind has an innate desire to worship someone or some thing. And the thing is, unless you have a relationship with God through his Son, Jesus Christ, nothing else this world can offer will truly satisify you. If you've ever had that deep down feeling that something is missing in your life--that something is not quite right in youir life--it's the fact that you don't know God through a personal relationship with his Son, Jesus Christ.

Lastly, my job is show you the way to salvation and to witness to you what I have experienced. I have done so. However, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to convict you of sin and to lead you to Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. It is my sincere prayer that you will come to Him before it's too late. Remember, we have no promise of tomorrow. The Bible describes life as a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. Please consider what I've been saying to you. The decisions you make now will have eternal consequences.

God bless you, Doug, and thank you for the kind words you expressed to me and Flash.

--BBJ





This post was edited on 2/23 9:08 AM by bigbadjohn45
I don't agree. Human nature has shown an inability to deal with the unknown. As a defense mechanism, we will invent things that make us feel better about our own ignorance.

Religion developed because we as humans cannot deal with the fear of the unknown, the fear of death, the inability to explain the natural world around us.

There was a time when Apollo was riding a golden chariot across the sky every day.

Isn't it odd that the # of miracles has decreased the more we know about the world?

Religion is fading. Within a few generations, we'll have no need of it at all.


Like I mentioned to Flash above, there's nothing wrong with different belief systems. Yours, mine, Muslims, Hindu's, VooDoos, Pagans, whatever.

As long as we treat each other and other civilly, then I don't see the big deal.
 
I have tried to stay out of this because its futile. I will just add these thoughts.

And yet, we can't be civil. We can not get along. I have to say Doug, that you fit right into man's arrogance. The 20th Century despite it amazing advancements was the bloodiest in the history of mankind. The 21st century is looking like more of the same. What is most interesting to me is your "line of thinking" controls the "Western" culture - and yet we continue to define decency down (a famous Democrats words).

Meanwhile your should check yourself about Religion fading - apparently you don't understand the demographics of Europe, most of Asia and the Middle East.

You have Faith - is called Skepticism. Or maybe its in science. Its definitely based on the arrogance that men can solve our problems.

I don't have all the answers, I am not going to try to share the Gospel via a message board. Consider your own family - you said your wife and kids claim faith, attend Church but you do not. If this is true, your own family may be at odds with one another and you will not see it. I have seen this for years. Women desperately wanting their Husbands to join them, to lead. Its painful for them. They pray, they hope, and wait. It impacts marriages, I hope it doesn't in yours.

God Bless
 
Originally posted by Blueraider_Mike:
I have tried to stay out of this because its futile. I will just add these thoughts.

And yet, we can't be civil. We can not get along. I have to say Doug, that you fit right into man's arrogance. The 20th Century despite it amazing advancements was the bloodiest in the history of mankind. The 21st century is looking like more of the same. What is most interesting to me is your "line of thinking" controls the "Western" culture - and yet we continue to define decency down (a famous Democrats words).
Yes, the 20th century is the "bloodiest", but but that's only because there's more people to kill. I hate to put it that way, but there hasn't been more war in the 20th century - we've just advanced our ability to destroy and affect people. The 20th century has just been humans being humans - but instead of an army of 10,000 facing each other, we have nations of millions. Of course there's going to be more carnage.

It's a question of logistics, not religion.

But the ability to destroy is eclipsed by the civilian advancements - quality of life, resource management, the advancements we've made in communication, etc.

None of the bad or good above is due to religion, or lack thereof. You look at a few countries and say the world is violent. I look at far more nations and peoples and say that we, by and large, have a peaceful and decent world - far more peaceful and decent than we have seen since the the first human society.


Also, if you're trying to advance the idea that the 20th centrury (and the 21st) is so bloody because of the lack of religion, the fact is by far there's more large scale violence committed in the name of religion today relative to other reasons for war - traditionally, a resource grab.

It wouldn't be hard to argue the fact that if every person on the planet became an athiest tomorrow, the majority of conflicts would simply cease. Until we started shooting each other over resources again.

Originally posted by Blueraider_Mike:


Meanwhile your should check yourself about Religion fading - apparently you don't understand the demographics of Europe, most of Asia and the Middle East.
It's trickling down from the first world. Just like every other advancement. Northern Europe is the most secular society in the world. North America is soon catching up.

It's no secret that the most advanced and educated societies are also the least religious.

It's even mirrored in our own country. The south lags behind the rest of the nation in every key demographic - education, healthcare, quality of life, economic opportunity, personal income - except religious fervor.

It's going to happen. Religion will be looked back as "the world is flat" idea of modern times.


Originally posted by Blueraider_Mike:

You have Faith - is called Skepticism. Or maybe its in science. Its definitely based on the arrogance that men can solve our problems.

I don't have all the answers, I am not going to try to share the Gospel via a message board. Consider your own family - you said your wife and kids claim faith, attend Church but you do not. If this is true, your own family may be at odds with one another and you will not see it. I have seen this for years. Women desperately wanting their Husbands to join them, to lead. Its painful for them. They pray, they hope, and wait. It impacts marriages, I hope it doesn't in yours.

God Bless
Maybe I'll convert them to athiesm.

We've been married 10 years in May, been together for 13 years. Honestly, we havea great relationship, and things get better every year. Our differing religious beliefs don't even come into play.

That said, men can solve all our problems.

It's not arrogance. It's arrogance to believe that there is an all powerful supreme being who is taking a personal interest in your day to day lives while allowing people to suffer and die for no apparent reason (suffering that's always justified by the infamous "God's Plan").

Look at the problems we have solved thus far. Disease, longevity of life. Literacy. We can feed more people on the planet than at any other time in human history. You can communicate with a person on the other side of the planet who speaks a different language in seconds.

None of this was done by some all powerful diety. The cell phone didn't descend from Heaven. It was done by men.
 
The only idea I am advancing is we cannot get along (be civil in your words). We have never gotten along, we will never get along.

And so why would we start shooting at each other over resources versus just sharing them - please explain that to me.
 
From the movie "God's Not Dead":

"Sometimes the devil allows people to live a life free of trouble because he doesn't want them turning to God. Their sin is like a jail cell, except it is all nice and comfy and there doesn't seem to be any reason to leave. The door's wide open. Till one day, time runs out, and the cell door slams shut, and suddenly it's too late."
This post was edited on 3/3 1:15 PM by bigbadjohn45
 
The cell phone didn't descend from Heaven. It was done by men.

And so was mustard gas. The internet is a wonderful thing, yet why do so many men feast on porn on a daily basis wrecking their ability to have true intimacy with their wives. Having food is great too - why are Americans so fat. Despite trillions spend on eliminating poverty in the US, why does it still exist.


Go back and read your response to me. I shared a concern and you replied with belittling. You say its all made up and then made sure to add the comment "suffer and die for no apparent reason" - applying this to a God you say doesn't exist. Why did you do that?

In thinking about it, Evil and suffering "may" be evidence for God. You claim its a problem for me as a believer - however, its a bigger problem for you. On what basis do you judge the natural world to be unfair, wrong or unjust? You may not believe in God, but you cannot explain away evil. If you were true to your atheism, you would celebrate evil and what is unjust by just saying it was evolutionary - its just the strong against the weak, perfectly natural. The idea that there is no God and we evolved this way is beyond frightening.

So do you believe that this is such a thing as evil or horrifying wickedness (...not just the illusion of it). An example, I think you said you grew up Catholic - how would you describe the behavior of the priest taking advantage of their position to have sex with boys? How do humans do these sic acts?

Again, why can't we get along?
 
I personally don't believe anyone who has felt the Holy Spirit would ever become an atheist. Obviously, atheists cannot conceive of the Holy Spirit since they don't believe in God but I can attest that once you feel the Holy Spirit, then you know yourself and want to share it with others. I shared this experience on another thread last year but I will repeat it again. As a staunch believer of capital punishment, I once prayed to God about it and in deep prayer the Lord clearly communicated His stand on capital punishment to me. I didn't hear any words or see a vision yet the communication was crystal clear. The Lord's presence was so evident that it was almost tangible. I have always felt His presence, but this time it was different. I really can't explain it but I know it was real and not imagined. Although I still believe in capital punishment, I know now that I could never administer the lethal injection to a death-row inmate, whereas before I thought I could do it without reservation.
 
RaiderDoug, please watch this video of Dr. Ben Carson and his statement that religious beliefs should not dictate one's public policies and stances (see link). Although Dr. Carson is very religious, would this statement satisfy you enough for you to vote for him if he became the Republican nominee? When you stated that you "fall on the conservative side for most issues," I can't help be skeptical given your strong atheist views. However, I'm aware that there are some atheists who are fiscally conservative but are usually liberal on social issues.







“Can Christian Faith Co-Exist With Science?”
 
Originally posted by Blueraider_Mike:
The cell phone didn't descend from Heaven. It was done by men.

And so was mustard gas. The internet is a wonderful thing, yet why do so many men feast on porn on a daily basis wrecking their ability to have true intimacy with their wives. Having food is great too - why are Americans so fat. Despite trillions spend on eliminating poverty in the US, why does it still exist.
Men have done many great and terrible things. We don't need gods to harm each other (although it helps), and we certainly don't need them to do great things either.

Also, how (and why?) are you so intune with the sexual habits of so many others? It might surprise you to learn that many women are avid consumers of adult entertainment.

I haven't claimed that we have already solved all of our problems. But we might one day.


Originally posted by Blueraider_Mike:

Go back and read your response to me. I shared a concern and you replied with belittling. You say its all made up and then made sure to add the comment "suffer and die for no apparent reason" - applying this to a God you say doesn't exist. Why did you do that?

In thinking about it, Evil and suffering "may" be evidence for God. You claim its a problem for me as a believer - however, its a bigger problem for you. On what basis do you judge the natural world to be unfair, wrong or unjust? You may not believe in God, but you cannot explain away evil. If you were true to your atheism, you would celebrate evil and what is unjust by just saying it was evolutionary - its just the strong against the weak, perfectly natural. The idea that there is no God and we evolved this way is beyond frightening.
Suffering is no evidence for God. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

If there is a benevolent, all powerful God - then there simply would be no suffering - children with cancer, victims of violence, etc.

If you claim that there is a God, and that he is good, and that he is all powerful, then, when confronted with human suffering there are only three logical deductions:

Either God is impotent. (He can't stop the suffering even though he wants to)
Or he is malevolent. (he wants us to suffer)
Or he simply doesn't exist.

There is and never has been any reason to "celebrate evil". That's a strawman argument you've set up there.


Originally posted by Blueraider_Mike:

So do you believe that this is such a thing as evil or horrifying wickedness (...not just the illusion of it). An example, I think you said you grew up Catholic - how would you describe the behavior of the priest taking advantage of their position to have sex with boys? How do humans do these sic acts?

Again, why can't we get along?
Of course there is.

That's really all the proof you should need that there is no God.

Unless you're one of those that steadfastly clings to the whole "God has his reasons" stuff. In which case the guy is the original Teflon Don - he gets the credit for the good stuff, and even his wickedness is justified according to you.

Priest molestation is irrelevant in this context - criminals come in all shapes and size (and religious denominations).


And we do get along. A small % of us around the world are psychopaths. Some of us are malcontents.

But by and large, you haven't chucked a spear at anyone lately. You haven't had to defend your village against bands of roving marauders. Everyone you come into contact with on a daily basis likely doesn't try to harm you or steal from you. And you can visit just about any nation and people on Earth and be treated the same way.

If that's not getting along with others, what is?
 
Originally posted by nashvillegoldenflash:
RaiderDoug, please watch this video of Dr. Ben Carson and his statement that religious beliefs should not dictate one's public policies and stances (see link). Although Dr. Carson is very religious, would this statement satisfy you enough for you to vote for him if he became the Republican nominee? When you stated that you "fall on the conservative side for most issues," I can't help be skeptical given your strong atheist views. However, I'm aware that there are some atheists who are fiscally conservative but are usually liberal on social issues.
Carson seams like a reasonable man.

Like I said before, I'm not anti-religion or anti-religious people.

All I ask is that our leaders keep their religious beliefs out of the decision that will affect the vast majority of people in the country who don't believe the same thing.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

As for my political stance, I'm a pro-gun, anti-abortion athiest who believes that in a society that cherishes freedom, everyone should be able to marry whomever they choose (even if it is distasteful) and that government has gotten too wasteful and large and needs to be curtailed, especially fiscally.

Are there there any other hot button issues that I missed?
 
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