Stock's Record

MidTennMtneer

All Conference
Gold Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,677
1,640
113
The thread on BRAA fundraising is getting long with many side topics, so I thought I'd start a new conversation. Austin pointed me in the right direction to his 2019 article and I built this from there.

Overall: 101-98 .508
Bowls: 3-6 .333
P5: 6-31 .162
G5 winning record finish: 17-39 .304
FCS: 9-1 .900

I THINK this is right. Did it quick from the wiki records so I absolutely could've missed something. I need to go back and check against winning record P5s out of curiosity.

Number of teams in conference that finished with winning records including us, and sadly counting .500 as winning.
2006 - 4/8
2007 - 3/8
2008 - 4/8
2009 - 4/9
2010 - 2/9
2011 - 3/9
2012 - 4/10
2013 - 8/14 (cusa)
2014 - 8/13
2015 - 5/13
2016 - 5/13
2017 - 9/14
2018 - 7/14
2019 - 7/14
2020 - 4/13 (ODU didn't play)
2021 - 6/14

Bring on the bad words
 
  • Like
Reactions: SpaceRaider

RaiderDoug

Hall of Famer
Jul 26, 2005
5,979
1,986
113
And I think someone said we were like 3-6 vs our main rival WKU under Stock.

This stat - G5 winning record finish: 17-39 .304 - is astonishing. The only teams he can beat are other losing G5 teams.

That's how we went from 20k+ fans being a pretty regular deal to...well...crickets. I simply cannot understand how the MT Admin thinks this is acceptable.

I think, as a whole, we're trending upwards in athletics. I think we've always had some solid olympic sports. Men's BBall is maybe pulling itself up. WBB is strong. Baseball is out of it's funk hopefully (still need to get back to the Coach Pete glory days).

How they continue to tolerate the wart on the nose of the program that is Stockstill is beyond me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SpaceRaider

SpaceRaider

Blue Raider Legend
Gold Member
Jul 22, 2001
74,515
6,157
113
God's Country
Also, one thing that Massaro was hired to do was upgrade the schedule (more H&H deals with P5s). He was successful with that but it is notable that MT has won only 1 time under stockstill over a P5 in Floyd Stadium. Those that have traveled to Floyd were not world beaters, but Stockstill managed to make them look like NFL teams against his underperforming Raiders. What is his record against those P5s in Floyd? 1-11?1-12? or even worse?
 
  • Like
Reactions: MTTim

MidTennMtneer

All Conference
Gold Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,677
1,640
113
Just from memory I am trying to figure who the six wins are? (Maryland x2, Missouri, Syracuse, ?, ?). I am having a senior moment trying to recall.

Wins
Maryland 08
Maryland 09
Georgia Tech 12
Missouri 16
Syracuse 17

Losses
Maryland 06
South Carolina 06
Louisville 06 (In Nashville, Cardinals ranked)
Oklahoma 06
Louisville 07
LSU 07
Virginia 07
Kentucky 08
Louisville 08
Clemson 09
Miss State 09
Minnesota 10
Georgia Tech 10
Purdue 11
Georgia Tech 11
Tennessee 11
Miss State 12
North Carolina 13
Minnesota 14
Alabama 15
Vandy 15
Illinois 15
Vandy 16
Vandy 17
Minnesota 17
Vandy 18
Georgia 18
Kentucky 18
Duke 19
Iowa 19
Michigan 19

I must've mis-counted. That's 5-31.
 

MT Glenn

True Blue
Sep 19, 2005
950
1,396
93
17-39 against G5 schools, with a winning record, is absolutely pathetic. Donating money to a regime that is ok with that, would be like buying stock in Shoneys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MTLynn and MTTim

MidTennMtneer

All Conference
Gold Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,677
1,640
113
Outright conference champions 0 for 16.

That to me is bigger than G5 record, conference record, against WKU, etc. But put it all together and it is even worse.

How many colleges would keep a coach who has
- Never won a championship
- Losing record against biggest rival. 6-8 and currently 3 game losing streak.
- 9-7 against in-state schools. 5-7 against non FCS. (I'm a firm believer we should play a TN school EVERY year)
Memphis 5-2
UT 0-1
Vanderbilt 0-4
Austin Peay 1-0
Tennessee Tech 1-0
UT Martin 1-0
TSU 1-0
- Losing bowl record
- 10/16 winning seasons but only 1 of the last 3. Losing record again this year, making 1 of last 4 should 100% be grounds for dismissal factoring in only this stat.
- 14-20 the last 3 years (holy crap that is sad when you look at it that way)

I've said before I'm grateful for him for his first few years and the mess he cleaned up. But we haven't even plateaued. We've regressed the last 3 years.
 

ewglenn

Moderator
Moderator
Oct 6, 2021
750
700
93
And I think someone said we were like 3-6 vs our main rival WKU under Stock.

This stat - G5 winning record finish: 17-39 .304 - is astonishing. The only teams he can beat are other losing G5 teams.

That's how we went from 20k+ fans being a pretty regular deal to...well...crickets. I simply cannot understand how the MT Admin thinks this is acceptable.

I think, as a whole, we're trending upwards in athletics. I think we've always had some solid olympic sports. Men's BBall is maybe pulling itself up. WBB is strong. Baseball is out of it's funk hopefully (still need to get back to the Coach Pete glory days).

How they continue to tolerate the wart on the nose of the program that is Stockstill is beyond me.
That stat is a little misleading imo. It isn’t factoring in the buy games other teams are playing. A lot of G5 teams over that period would have been playing 2 p5 per year. There were multiple times we’ve done it. It messes up the averages to me.
 

ewglenn

Moderator
Moderator
Oct 6, 2021
750
700
93
83-61 is his record against the G5 in the regular season. That’s not that bad to me. Considering how bad our facilities are in comparison to our peers I’m actually shocked that is over .500.
 

MidTennMtneer

All Conference
Gold Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,677
1,640
113
Look at the records, sure. I'm a numbers guy and like to lay things out. But it all comes down to this.
Stock is a heck of a guy with regards to running a clean program, is respected by players and fellow coaches, and cleaned up a big mess when he got here.

But all you can ask is this.

If you aren't going to fire a coach, if he leaves tomorrow on his own, is the program better than when he got here? If not, is it showing improvement or declining?

The bottom line is he made the program better, now it is going down. Time to move on.

Not to mention the college landscape has obviously changed and his personality isn't the kind a G5 school in P5 territory needs.

It's simply time to move on. Add the record numbers in with it and it just reinforces the idea. We all know we can't buy him out, just hope he retires. But I'll still donate so maybe we can somehow anyway. I just love to keep track of stuff like this and thought I would share my findings.
 

Brew_Raider

True Blue
Oct 31, 2015
503
520
93
But keep all the P5 games? Makes no sense to me.

We are an FBS school, so all games in our division should count. FCS is a completely different division.

I mean, logically we have no business being in the same division as Alabama or UGA, but we wanted to be FBS, so those are the games we are held against.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FranklinRaider315

TRUEBLUE73

Blue Raider
Gold Member
Oct 8, 2020
249
172
43
Without a doubt the facilities are 80 percent of the decision as to why players choose a school. This statement is coming from former players. When you have Highschool facilities this is what you get.
 

RaiderDoug

Hall of Famer
Jul 26, 2005
5,979
1,986
113
If they wanted facilities built (or really, anything else that comes with a well supported program), they should have offered an entertainment product that people wanted to support.

The kicker is that is wasn't like the support wasn't there. The support and $$$'s were there in the mid-late 2000's. It was actively driven away by years of neglect. It's not coming back without a significant show that we're committed to football, and that starts with a new, fresh, start.

Plus I got news for you guys - you can give Coach Compete all the facilities he wants, you can clone Clemson's buildings and plop 'em down next to Cope, and he's still not going to win.
 

ewglenn

Moderator
Moderator
Oct 6, 2021
750
700
93
We are an FBS school, so all games in our division should count. FCS is a completely different division.

I mean, logically we have no business being in the same division as Alabama or UGA, but we wanted to be FBS, so those are the games we are held against.
I understand what you’re saying from a technicality standpoint but there’s probably a bigger gap talent wise between us and the majority of the P5 than there is between us and FCS.
 

ewglenn

Moderator
Moderator
Oct 6, 2021
750
700
93
If they wanted facilities built (or really, anything else that comes with a well supported program), they should have offered an entertainment product that people wanted to support.

The kicker is that is wasn't like the support wasn't there. The support and $$$'s were there in the mid-late 2000's. It was actively driven away by years of neglect. It's not coming back without a significant show that we're committed to football, and that starts with a new, fresh, start.

Plus I got news for you guys - you can give Coach Compete all the facilities he wants, you can clone Clemson's buildings and plop 'em down next to Cope, and he's still not going to win.
That’s an assumption (probably a safe bet) but there’s no way to know that without new facilities.
 

ewglenn

Moderator
Moderator
Oct 6, 2021
750
700
93
I also hate to break it to you guys but until phase three is completed we’re still going to be behind most of the G5. We will have just closed the gap and made it a little easier to recruit here. That IPF is a huge need too and I think that’s being overlooked.
 

MidTennMtneer

All Conference
Gold Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,677
1,640
113
I understand what you’re saying from a technicality standpoint but there’s probably a bigger gap talent wise between us and the majority of the P5 than there is between us and FCS.

Just as a voice here, but is that indicative of a huge chunk of the P5 pulling away (which they are, especially SEC/B1G) or is that due to our recruiting, which as we all know we have guys with more FCS than FBS offers. Granted, facilities affects that.

I also hate to break it to you guys but until phase three is completed we’re still going to be behind most of the G5. We will have just closed the gap and made it a little easier to recruit here. That IPF is a huge need too and I think that’s being overlooked.

I get the Phase order, to an extent. Murphy desperately needs redone and can't be till the FB offices are out. But that IPF should be higher up the list. It honestly could've been built a decade ago for not a whole lot of money. Prefab metal, AC, and some brick on the lower portion outside. Call it a day. When we began having pro day at a local high school, that should've been a sign.
 

blueraiderJT

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2006
6,320
2,242
113
Attendance.

For my two cents, attendance is a critical factor in evaluating a program and it's leadership at this level, or any D1 program for that matter. The recent years has not been pretty when looking at all the empty seats on game day.
Attendance is bad for many reasons besides our record.....

1. No one around here cares about our opponents. (no where states in our bad conference)

2. TV and on demand drives it all now. From 01-2014, you didn't have a lot of those options. You sure do now so we sit at home to watch all the games.

3. From 2014 and on, we play games vs. No where st. usually at the EXACT SAME TIME as UT, Vandy, Bama, Miss State, etc. When we were in the SBC, we played a lot during the week. Easier to attract a crowd when no one else is playing which is why I liked the MAC option. If you gotta play nowhere st., might as well do it when no one else is playing, You have a shot to market it. Playing head to head with a BAMA is a guarantee of a no show.

4. We decreased scheduling regional games with local opponents. From 07 - 2014, we had games with Memphis, WKU, Troy, APSU and ASU. Those were all well attended games and they were regional. Since, we've had a Vandy series and one TSU game. All of those were decent numbers but every home OOC needs to be some regional game where fans can travel or we can too.

5. We are a communter school and sports are starting to become less popular with each new generation and with the competing tech we now have, that's a major issue as well

Those 5 factors alone have been damning to us and doesn't even address our record or performance.
 

blueraiderJT

Hall of Famer
Oct 15, 2006
6,320
2,242
113
Just as a voice here, but is that indicative of a huge chunk of the P5 pulling away (which they are, especially SEC/B1G) or is that due to our recruiting, which as we all know we have guys with more FCS than FBS offers. Granted, facilities affects that.



I get the Phase order, to an extent. Murphy desperately needs redone and can't be till the FB offices are out. But that IPF should be higher up the list. It honestly could've been built a decade ago for not a whole lot of money. Prefab metal, AC, and some brick on the lower portion outside. Call it a day. When we began having pro day at a local high school, that should've been a sign.
Been saying that from day one. You could have built a SUPER NICE TEMP CONTROLLED IPF for under a mill back then. You still can for under 2 now if you cut put the B.S. they have in their plans. BYU had an inflated temp building type IPF for YEARS. It was heated and air cooled. TTU is even building their upgrades with an added full out admin building for under 6 mill. This crap ain't hard.
 

RaiderDoug

Hall of Famer
Jul 26, 2005
5,979
1,986
113
That’s an assumption (probably a safe bet) but there’s no way to know that without new facilities.

Well, two thoughts on that.

1. We didn't always have the worst facilities in FBS. In fact, back when I cared more about 5+ years ago, I remember easily found statistics that showed that MT consistently topped (or near topped) the conference in budget/resources (both SBC and early CUSA).

I can't say how that directly translates to "facilities", but MT Football wasn't lacking from a resources standpoint with respect to it's peers. Most of our other athletic programs won and won titles. Only really Stockstill was unable to win.

2. I know facilities is the rage of the day, and I'm not saying that it's not a factor, but i'm not sure that the info is out there to do a real comparison. I know someone will certainly google XYZ State's new football building and say "Look what they have that we don't, that's why we suck", but I'm not sure I buy it as the be-all end-all of our lack of football success. There's plenty of teams up and down the college football hierarchy that tend to recruit pretty well without the newest-shiniest toys. No one is expecting to out-recruit Bama, but we can do better if they want to put in the effort. Not every recruit is measuring the square footage of a weight room during an official visit and choosing based on that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FranklinRaider315

MidTennMtneer

All Conference
Gold Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,677
1,640
113
The two $ makers are football and basketball. Yet they have been last in getting done. We have a new track and stands, baseball redone, new softball, indoor tennis, golf, and I guess outdoor tennis will be about the same time. But still. To me, the $ makers should've been done first. Maybe money was earmarked specifically for those other sports. Idk.
 

MTLynn

Hall of Famer
Jan 27, 2003
8,325
1,858
113
There's plenty of teams up and down the college football hierarchy that tend to recruit pretty well without the newest-shiniest toys. No one is expecting to out-recruit Bama, but we can do better if they want to put in the effort. Not every recruit is measuring the square footage of a weight room during an official visit and choosing based on that.
The Raiders should be able to out-recruit every MAC team.
 

JohnDavidBlue

All American
Sep 10, 2005
4,156
2,345
113
We’ve basically solved all our problems.

  1. Retire Rick
  2. Upgrade facilities - yes but no
  3. Don’t buy season tickets (if you don’t want to) but donate to the build blue campaign
  4. Get a sams membership
I’m sure I’ve missed a couple points we could slide to Sidney.
 

SpaceRaider

Blue Raider Legend
Gold Member
Jul 22, 2001
74,515
6,157
113
God's Country
I also hate to break it to you guys but until phase three is completed we’re still going to be behind most of the G5. We will have just closed the gap and made it a little easier to recruit here. That IPF is a huge need too and I think that’s being overlooked.
It should've been in place, already complete, 15 or 20 years ago.
 

Brew_Raider

True Blue
Oct 31, 2015
503
520
93
I understand what you’re saying from a technicality standpoint but there’s probably a bigger gap talent wise between us and the majority of the P5 than there is between us and FCS.

This true. Which goes back to why are we pretending to be in the same division?
 

MidTennMtneer

All Conference
Gold Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,677
1,640
113
This true. Which goes back to why are we pretending to be in the same division?

That's exactly why I'm of the mentality that when the dust settles the G5/4 should just pull away and do their own thing, including a real playoff. Give us something to truly shoot for other than a bowl.

I agree with what CM said st the town hall. It's gonna happen and in the mean time we need to position ourselves to be in the 2nd grouping. Meaning we need to win and win now and for a while.
 
  • Like
Reactions: middletn11

RaiderDoug

Hall of Famer
Jul 26, 2005
5,979
1,986
113
We’ve basically solved all our problems.

  1. Retire Rick
  2. Upgrade facilities - yes but no
  3. Don’t buy season tickets (if you don’t want to) but donate to the build blue campaign
  4. Get a sams membership
I’m sure I’ve missed a couple points we could slide to Sidney.

Well, if we do #1, and make the right hire - an energetic guy who gives a flip, wants to win, and is willing to try and sell the program (i.e. a guy who's looking to move up, not retire here), then #2 (bringing in cash) and #3 (selling tix) will take care of themselves.

I don't know what to do with #4.
 

ewglenn

Moderator
Moderator
Oct 6, 2021
750
700
93
Well, two thoughts on that.

1. We didn't always have the worst facilities in FBS. In fact, back when I cared more about 5+ years ago, I remember easily found statistics that showed that MT consistently topped (or near topped) the conference in budget/resources (both SBC and early CUSA).

I can't say how that directly translates to "facilities", but MT Football wasn't lacking from a resources standpoint with respect to it's peers. Most of our other athletic programs won and won titles. Only really Stockstill was unable to win.

2. I know facilities is the rage of the day, and I'm not saying that it's not a factor, but i'm not sure that the info is out there to do a real comparison. I know someone will certainly google XYZ State's new football building and say "Look what they have that we don't, that's why we suck", but I'm not sure I buy it as the be-all end-all of our lack of football success. There's plenty of teams up and down the college football hierarchy that tend to recruit pretty well without the newest-shiniest toys. No one is expecting to out-recruit Bama, but we can do better if they want to put in the effort. Not every recruit is measuring the square footage of a weight room during an official visit and choosing based on that.
Name one that recruits well with facilities on par with ours… I’ll wait
 

RaiderDoug

Hall of Famer
Jul 26, 2005
5,979
1,986
113
Name one that recruits well with facilities on par with ours… I’ll wait

I don't know. That's kind of my point. I'm not sure we really know what the entirety of the G5 facilities situation is. Who wants to take a road trip to all 50+ G5 programs and rank them? Me neither.


I'm just not sure that facilities is the be all end all on the recruiting trail. I'm sure it makes quite an impression, and on some guys, maybe it is the difference. But I think a lot goes into it - relationships with recruiters and coaches are huge. Other factors are past on field performance and success, chances at the NFL, distance from home, games on TV, on-field offensive and defensive systems, how you fit in with teammates, do you like the city and area, how are the parties? Heck, even academics for some kids.

Good coaches are able to overcome all sorts of facilities and resource deficiencies. I've seen programs like Northwestern win the Big 10, Wake Forest win the ACC, and Washington State/Stanford win the P10/12. I've seen Vanderbilt win 9 games in consecutive years vs the SEC. No one could claim that those programs have the facilities or resources of their peers, yet they still managed to win with skilled/dedicated coaches. That's what we're lacking.

The fact is that it's been 17 years of failure. So, I'm just not sure that the evidence is there that Stock is a championship coach except for the one variable of facilities. And if you're not a championship coach after 17 tries, then you're just not the guy.
 
Last edited: