BASKETBALL Bonus Play
- Thread starter SpaceRaider
- Start date
This bonus play format stuff seems like a bunch of crap to me.
Agreed. Bonus play hasn’t worked as designed. It won’t work this year based on overall records of our leaders. If our leader has 5 losses or more, it really doesn’t matter because no one will be worthy of a NCAA at large.
The concept was designed to give the leader of the conference (namely the top team) an unique opportunity to build their RPI (now the NET) higher.
Had MT had this opportunity a few years ago, it would have supposedly helped us into the low 20s versus being around the 31-39 range. Enough quality “quad two wins: 50-100 RPI” were lacking on our resume then. The year we defeated Marshall in Birmingham, had we lost that game we would have been certainly relegated to NIT based on our #12 seed earned in the draw. We would have been first four out. This was the conference response to prevent from happening in future years when they moved the tournament to the Star.
I agree with you. It may be designed to “protect” the top team so if they lose in the tourney, they may have a strong enough resume they still get in. However, I think it’s more likely the top team losses a game that makes winning the tourney do or die for them like everyone else.
The real way to improve our chances is for the league as a whole to get better.
Bingo. Quick trying to trick the system. Our conference sux and the only way to get more bids is for every team to start winning more games, especially out of conference.
This.
Remember when we were the ones groaning about our RPI falling even though we had won 12 or 13 games straight??? Remember complaining about those 200+ and 300+ RPI teams???
Look at what we are now.....and in quite short order.
Flat out embarassing.
Precisely!!!
This “protection” theory was already disproven two years ago with MT. We had a tougher schedule with the Diamond Head Classic tournament. We had 5 losses until Marshall in MC while ranked #24, followed by USM loss in the Star as #1 seed. If there ever was a C-USA case to earn at large with conference credibility, Kermit’s final year was it. We had final week AP ranking and early loss as #1 prior to Selection Sunday. Only thing we could have helped ourselves was to win against USM followed by a semis loss against a likely top 5 seed in C-USA. Losing championship game yields no different optics than any other low majors having 6 or fewer losses on resume for at large.
In C-USA, it comes down to “Can you win 3 games in 3 days?” If you can, Congratulations, your NCAA Ticket is punched!! If not, NIT (regular season champs or 2d place with 7 losses or less—such as LaTech/ODU a few years ago) or that CBI/CIT thing Marshall or Murray (CIT) won. Sadly, not much difference from OVC: only an opportunity to improve seed line by +1 or perhaps +2. Our representative will likely carry a 14 seed into the NCAA’s (too much losing has happened this year to expect anything better).
The days of 2-3 bids from C-USA are long gone unless schedules and winning have a light year upgrade. Long as we have multiple teams below 200 in the NET, it’s no better than OVC or other “low major” conference. It would actually be better if we adopted the OVC or West Coast Conf. bracket system—invite the top 8 with the top two teams earning a bye/double bye as a reward for a excellent season in conference.
Unfortunately, C-USA’s system is where we are for the foreseeable future. Plenty of sub 200 teams (and we joined the party this year in a big way). We struck the “fools gold” mine!! Yippee!!!
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While watching a game recently on TV, the announcers were talking about 1 bid conferences. I think they were talking about another conference trying the same scheduling as C-USA to improve their circumstances. If I remember correctly, the announcers were asserting that this scheduling was producing little if any added benefits. I thought the announcers started to refer to some conferences already moving to regular season Champs for the auto bid. That was the first I had heard about it.
Anybody have any idea what conferences they might have been talking about? I have not seen anything on any conferences making a move towards regular season champs for the bid.
Anybody have any idea what conferences they might have been talking about? I have not seen anything on any conferences making a move towards regular season champs for the bid.
I botched the post with too much rambling, as usual. I thought I had heard of several conferences doing the flex scheduling. I thought the Sunbelt might have been one of them.
My main question is has anyone heard of any conferences going back to regular season champs for the auto bid?
I can't even remember which game I had on at this point. Just in the last week or two. It caught my attention when I thought I heard the announcer describe some big changes with conferences awarding their bid to regular season champs. He did not elaborate, and I have been keeping my ear to the ground ever since. I haven't heard of anything. It's entirely possible I just misunderstood what the announcer was saying.
I kinda wish C-USA would come up with an auto bid for the outright regular season champ. If it is a shared regular season title, then a conf tournament similar to the ovc would be the way to award the auto bid. I'm not holding my breath.
Is the conference tournament a money maker or even a break even thing? I can't imagine that tv revenue is worth it? Aren't all the teams required to support the tourney by selling an allotment of tickets?
The conference tourney needs to go away or be severely reduced in size (# of teams).
The conference tourney needs to go away or be severely reduced in size (# of teams).
I personally like a conference tournament but with stipulations... I would like to see:
1. The tournament be in a permanent site.
2. The site should have an 8k to 12k seating capacity.
My feelings for these criteria come from being married to a UTC Alum... For years, the Southern Conference was held in Ashville, NC... The following of people, from all members of the conference, had unbelievable numbers of annual attendees that planned time off of work just for the conference tournament trip.... It became a hard ticket for all the early rounds... In most cases, the finals was a packed house... The venue rocked the whole tourney...
Granted we cannot go to Asheville but surely there are venues available that could accommodate this... The great atmosphere and all the things that go with it could be developed, given time, proper planning, selective site selection (in a town with many potential outside activities for the fans), and promotion...
For the negative side, I have NO Confidence in the CUSA Leadership... I personally do not believe the individuals at the league office could even remotely begin to pull it off (the planning of this)...
1. The tournament be in a permanent site.
2. The site should have an 8k to 12k seating capacity.
My feelings for these criteria come from being married to a UTC Alum... For years, the Southern Conference was held in Ashville, NC... The following of people, from all members of the conference, had unbelievable numbers of annual attendees that planned time off of work just for the conference tournament trip.... It became a hard ticket for all the early rounds... In most cases, the finals was a packed house... The venue rocked the whole tourney...
Granted we cannot go to Asheville but surely there are venues available that could accommodate this... The great atmosphere and all the things that go with it could be developed, given time, proper planning, selective site selection (in a town with many potential outside activities for the fans), and promotion...
For the negative side, I have NO Confidence in the CUSA Leadership... I personally do not believe the individuals at the league office could even remotely begin to pull it off (the planning of this)...
Infinite Energy Center outside of Atlanta. The SEC women used to hold their tourney there. Holds 12,750 for basketball.
Or be more conservative and play at the Gateway Center Arena (g league /WNBA arena) down by the airport. I think it holds 3,500 -4,000.
Everyone has direct flights to Atlanta and it wouldn’t give an absolute home court advantage like Birmingham. Plus tons to do in Atlanta area.
Of course CUSA draws and plays more like a conference that plays at the regular season champs home court.
Totally agree. I like the OVC and WCC’s 8 team setup. Eight is enough and here’s why:
As much as I (and most everyone else) likes Cinderella stories of 15/2 (like ours against Michigan State) and 14/3 upsets in NCAAs, and never forget 16/1 UMBC upset over Virginia, the conference tournament should be a gatekeeper. To me, our conference comes down to winning 3 games in 3 days, or 4 games if seeded 5 or below in our 12 team field—Right now it doesn’t matter if record is 27-4 or 9-23. Eight teams protects regular season integrity while at same time providing an reasonable opportunity to get “red hot“ with somewhat of a decent record earned through season play. Tournaments should not grace complete futility. Otherwise, why play a 26 or 30 game regular season if one can get a bailout through a Thursday-Saturday run? That’s partly why NCAA Tournaments expanded to 32, 48, 64, and now 68 (with the First Four) in the first place to protect against conference champions getting shut out with one upset conference tournament loss, while being ranked AP top 3. Think it happened to North Carolina by an early ACC Tournament loss in the 70s. Think they finished with an NIT title that year.
Closer to home: MT can win 7 games (3 BP + 4 in CUSA Tourney) and make it into NCAAs as I write this. If MT happened to win 14 consecutive games we are National Champions at exactly a .500 record. That thought is clearly nothing short of a bonafide miracle that the history of Basketball has never experienced. What would that say about Kansas, Gonzaga, Baylor, or San Diego State? It’s possible we could only play one or none in a national title path through some anomaly like an 8/1 or a 4/1 upsets along the way. How strange would it be to have 21-21 MT to be National Champion while SDSU have only 2 or 3? Would it be viewed credible? Laws of probability make such a scenario possible, no matter how improbable it may be in reality. Shrinking the conference tournament reduces irrational probabilities to zero while rewarding regular season progress and performance.
At end of the day, it should be total body of work considered: top 8 seeds gives legitimacy while allowing teams to improve over course of a year and allows an occasional team to get hot over a weekend (such as an APSU one year being 8 seed and winning OVC tournament championship). It should continue to make fun (but not irrational) conversations and perhaps a NC dream that makes “One Shining Moment” possible. NCAA Tournament is a much better contrast than FBS CFP where 105 teams are written off for a chance at a NC before the first kickoff ever occurs on an August afternoon.
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If we win the NC with a 21-21 record I will not for one second be ashamed to hang that banner!
I like the idea of a central conference tournament. But it has to be somewhere where I can fly to if the drive is 4+ hours for me. Never went to hot springs because no way I was going to drive 6+ hours to be possibly eliminated in the first round. I love watching basketball but 12 hour round trip was too much to even think about.
Because the odds are so stacked against the little guys from the "Power Conferences", we have to send our best. If we don't reward regular season champions than we are sending the team that got hot at the right time which doesn't reward consistency.
Because the odds are so stacked against the little guys from the "Power Conferences", we have to send our best. If we don't reward regular season champions than we are sending the team that got hot at the right time which doesn't reward consistency.
If we win the NC with a 21-21 record I will not for one second be ashamed to hang that banner!
Agree! I would be proud of that NCAA banner!! I can hear Laura Branigan’s “Gloria” in the Monte Hale/Jimmy Earle Arena, much like the Blues NHL run last year. Or, we could play “Top of the World” by the Carpenters as our victory song!
A .500 record would never be more grand!! Even ESPN 30/30 worthy!!
An all time sports moment if we manage that improbable wishful thinking All we have to do is seize the day at each step. It’s the opportunity before us as long as we make the C-USA Tournament this year, and just keep winning.
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On the main topic, I wish we would drop bonus play. CUSA is too weak in conference for bonus play to help. We need to boost our OOC schedule.
I would suggest a 16 game conference schedule (every one once and 3 rivals h/a).
We have a base 13 game OOC schedule, with 6 games required to be Q1 and 6 Q2 based on the previous season. That gives 1 play game.
For the final 2 OOC games to get to 31, we set up a bracket buster like challenge toward the end of the season with the Southern, OVC or other typical 1-bid conferences. Match up 1-10 from each conference. For teams 11-14, they just match up with each other in 2 “non-conference” games that really don’t matter because they suck.
We need our teams to be getting 6-10 Q1 games a year. We need a schedule that would allow good teams to end up with a NET ranking better than 50 and the only way that happens is to play Q1 teams.
I would suggest a 16 game conference schedule (every one once and 3 rivals h/a).
We have a base 13 game OOC schedule, with 6 games required to be Q1 and 6 Q2 based on the previous season. That gives 1 play game.
For the final 2 OOC games to get to 31, we set up a bracket buster like challenge toward the end of the season with the Southern, OVC or other typical 1-bid conferences. Match up 1-10 from each conference. For teams 11-14, they just match up with each other in 2 “non-conference” games that really don’t matter because they suck.
We need our teams to be getting 6-10 Q1 games a year. We need a schedule that would allow good teams to end up with a NET ranking better than 50 and the only way that happens is to play Q1 teams.
There are some great ideas in this thread.
A result of watching M&M wreck MT sports has been that I haven't thought all that much about how the conference commish isn't exactly instilling a lot of confidence in her leadership of the conference. It's really sad as a few people here in this thread have put forth some ideas that I would love to see attempted by C-USA. I just don't have much confidence that the current commish would be bold, daring, or innovative enough to develop and execute some good ideas.
I agree, ooc is where you really make your hay for the overall conf rating and individual team ratings.
I really like the idea of a conf challenge that a number of conferences have been doing in Nov & Dec for years. I also really like the idea of a conf challenge bracket buster style. Instead of this bonus play schedule thing, it would be great to see C-USA 1 vs OVC 1 or C-USA 2 vs MAC 2 sometime in mid to late Feb.
Admittedly, the ovc may not have as much appeal in Florida, Virginia, or Texas, but there are a few conferences that could have good wide appeal. MAC, MVC, Sunbelt, or even the A-10. Granted, C-USA would likely need to do some overall improving to entice someone like the A-10, but it would be good goals for the teams and C-USA as a whole to work towards.
A result of watching M&M wreck MT sports has been that I haven't thought all that much about how the conference commish isn't exactly instilling a lot of confidence in her leadership of the conference. It's really sad as a few people here in this thread have put forth some ideas that I would love to see attempted by C-USA. I just don't have much confidence that the current commish would be bold, daring, or innovative enough to develop and execute some good ideas.
I agree, ooc is where you really make your hay for the overall conf rating and individual team ratings.
I really like the idea of a conf challenge that a number of conferences have been doing in Nov & Dec for years. I also really like the idea of a conf challenge bracket buster style. Instead of this bonus play schedule thing, it would be great to see C-USA 1 vs OVC 1 or C-USA 2 vs MAC 2 sometime in mid to late Feb.
Admittedly, the ovc may not have as much appeal in Florida, Virginia, or Texas, but there are a few conferences that could have good wide appeal. MAC, MVC, Sunbelt, or even the A-10. Granted, C-USA would likely need to do some overall improving to entice someone like the A-10, but it would be good goals for the teams and C-USA as a whole to work towards.
Hard to know what is best for C-USA or MT in particular. We are so influenced by the $EC and hear so much about the huge crowds and economic influence of their tournament in Nashville that anything the conference does looks so feeble in contrast that both the conference and MT are relegated to $#&-major mediocrity. Most mid-state casual fans don't know the difference in the OVC, SoCon, A-Sun, or C-USA nor do they care.
I wish our conference had become similar to the A-10 but it wasn't to be once Memphis left. As long as Memphis with it's fan base was the bell cow the tournament would be somewhat "bigtime" if held in Memphis. Additionally, it would be nice if our conference was more closely located geographically and we could have the tournament in a central location like the MVC's Arch Madness in St. Louis. They have long term rivals and the tournament means something to their fan bases although their fan bases are probably similar in size to most C-USA members. I am envious of the crowds seen on TV.
As for travel distances. I loved The Belt's tournament in Hot Springs. The venue was the right size and the town to me was enough of a tourist destination with things to do and good restaurants. The 6-hour drive was OK (That's for you JDB) and not too far if you are really a fan (look and the number of fans who drive much longer distances to power conference tournaments - they are not assured of more than one game either). But I do agree, there is some distance which affects many fans - I have not embraced going to Frisco if for no other reason that the location should be closer to the greater number of the largest fan bases.
I've been disappointed with our conferences' tournaments all the way back to the OVC days. At the time the ACC was the only conference (IIRC) with a post season tournament and they were always sold out with ticket scalping and media coverage prevalent. I foolishly thought an OVC tournament would draw similarly since we were so close geographically. Slowly I began to realize that our fan bases were much smaller and that a primary reason we drew so well for regular season conference games was the free admission for students and inexpensive ticket prices. Many of the fans would not spend one dime to go an event like the "Rumble in Rupp" in Lexington. I did in Farrar's first year and was disappointed that I was one of so few MT fans present. And we lost the 1st game and I haven't been in Rupp since although the wife and I did some sightseeing before coming home. I was glad I hadn't bought a ticket booklet as I didn't care once MT lost. That is one difference hurting most $#&-major tournaments. Most fans are like me and don't really care once their team is eliminated. Power conference tournaments have basketball fans (perhaps not of one team in particular) who come for the week(?) and watch all games regardless.
Sorry, I have nothing else; there are many ideas in this thread, most have been tried - Wish the PTB could come up with something.
I wish our conference had become similar to the A-10 but it wasn't to be once Memphis left. As long as Memphis with it's fan base was the bell cow the tournament would be somewhat "bigtime" if held in Memphis. Additionally, it would be nice if our conference was more closely located geographically and we could have the tournament in a central location like the MVC's Arch Madness in St. Louis. They have long term rivals and the tournament means something to their fan bases although their fan bases are probably similar in size to most C-USA members. I am envious of the crowds seen on TV.
As for travel distances. I loved The Belt's tournament in Hot Springs. The venue was the right size and the town to me was enough of a tourist destination with things to do and good restaurants. The 6-hour drive was OK (That's for you JDB) and not too far if you are really a fan (look and the number of fans who drive much longer distances to power conference tournaments - they are not assured of more than one game either). But I do agree, there is some distance which affects many fans - I have not embraced going to Frisco if for no other reason that the location should be closer to the greater number of the largest fan bases.
I've been disappointed with our conferences' tournaments all the way back to the OVC days. At the time the ACC was the only conference (IIRC) with a post season tournament and they were always sold out with ticket scalping and media coverage prevalent. I foolishly thought an OVC tournament would draw similarly since we were so close geographically. Slowly I began to realize that our fan bases were much smaller and that a primary reason we drew so well for regular season conference games was the free admission for students and inexpensive ticket prices. Many of the fans would not spend one dime to go an event like the "Rumble in Rupp" in Lexington. I did in Farrar's first year and was disappointed that I was one of so few MT fans present. And we lost the 1st game and I haven't been in Rupp since although the wife and I did some sightseeing before coming home. I was glad I hadn't bought a ticket booklet as I didn't care once MT lost. That is one difference hurting most $#&-major tournaments. Most fans are like me and don't really care once their team is eliminated. Power conference tournaments have basketball fans (perhaps not of one team in particular) who come for the week(?) and watch all games regardless.
Sorry, I have nothing else; there are many ideas in this thread, most have been tried - Wish the PTB could come up with something.
Bonus play does element Q4 games for the top CUSA teams, but it doesn’t help boost the top teams.
UNT leads CUSA. Their bonus play invludes a 1Q2 game and 4 Q3. One of those Q3 games could have been a Q2 game if they played WKU in Bowling Green instead of Denton. None of those games help get them in the tourney, it just prevents the NET from dropping by playing teams like MT.
I would also suggest we start conference play earlier and mix in between the more challenging OOC schedule.
Only way for CUSA to grow is to play better teams.
UNT leads CUSA. Their bonus play invludes a 1Q2 game and 4 Q3. One of those Q3 games could have been a Q2 game if they played WKU in Bowling Green instead of Denton. None of those games help get them in the tourney, it just prevents the NET from dropping by playing teams like MT.
I would also suggest we start conference play earlier and mix in between the more challenging OOC schedule.
Only way for CUSA to grow is to play better teams.
I think what we need to do is not guarantee the tourney champ or regular season champ an auto bid. If we have a regular season champ that is 17-1 and the next best team is 12-6 then the regular season champ gets in. All the tourney would do is improve the chances of a second team. If we have 3-4 teams within a couple games of each other in conference then if one of them win the tourney they get the auto bid.
